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Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

soccerboy22 said:
That would assume that the civilians thought they were going to be shot. Besides the soldiers wanted to shoot the wounded one.
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It assumes civilians who help armed men who were just shot, would also be armed and therefore would also get shot. It means that innocents get killed in all wars or conflicts. It means that during an engagement, civilians keeps their head and ass on the ground in a non-threatening manner until the shooting stops.

soccerboy22 said:
They were wanting him to pick up a weapon for that sole purpose and it doesn't sit well with me
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That's why they are soldiers and you're a civilian.
 
soccerboy22 said:
That would assume that the civilians thought they were going to be shot. Besides the soldiers wanted to shoot the wounded one. They were wanting him to pick up a weapon for that sole purpose and it doesn't sit well with me.
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I hate to be the one to break it to you, but during war it is kill or be killed. From the looks of the video, there was a every reason to believe the insurgents had weapons, especially at the point in the video where a man is crouching around a corner with what looks to be like an RPG.

Someone was going to die that day, and it sure wasn't going to be on the side of the U.S. military. Not today.

To be most effective, the attack by the Apache and how the crew handled the threat is not random behavior.
 
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Redress, your Salon excerpt needs to be read by all:

The video comes with several caveats. First, the warning soldiers always give about viewing things like this: Videos simply don't capture the complexity, pressures and confusion of modern warfare, they say. Things may look one way, now, on video, but in the heat of battle, it's likely that they seemed a lot different to those involved.

Second, the video may not show Americans doing anything wrong -- or at least not illegal under the Law of Armed Conflict. The shorthand version of that law is that you can kill the enemy, period. The gray area in asymmetrical warfare, however, is determining just who the enemy is. Given those ambiguities, in a military courtroom a jury would have to determine if the shooter "honestly and reasonably" believed he was shooting the enemy, according to Gary Solis, an expert on military law at Georgetown University. "That will always be a defense," he told Salon.
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Politics101 said:
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but during war it is kill or be killed. From the looks of the video, there was a every reason to believe the insurgents had weapons, especially at the point in the video where a man is crouching around a corner with what looks to be like an RPG.

Someone was going to die that day, and it sure wasn't going to be on the side of the U.S. military. Not today.

To be most effective, the attack by the Apache and how the crew handled the threat is not random behavior.
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Exactly but hell, lets wait until they actually kill someone before reacting in a war zone!

Can you imagine 1942? I'm sorry, you can't attack those Nazi troops. They look at ease and are not attacking anyone at the moment. No it doesn't matter that they're armed. They're just hiding behind a building while allied vehicles are coming up the road.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
You know, I tried, but I just couldn't read this whole thread.

All the AMERICA **** YEAH has made me nauseous, and as if that weren't bad enough, as if the OUR MILITARY IS SO AWEOME and WE ROCK SO HARD wasn't enough to make me vomit hate all over some of you, we get justifications and cheering for the contents of that video.

Oh, great. Just ****ing great.

Look, if some of you want to argue that it's not our fault someone else used human shields, fine. If you want to argue that that blood is on someone else's hands, alright, I guess. It's a seriously gray area in the already muddied code of war-time ethics, so I guess I can tolerate an argument along those lines.

But cheering? At the death of children?

**** you, ****necks. I don't need to point you out, you know exactly who the **** you sick mother****ers are.

Oh yes, our military is just so awesome. It's JUST

Afghan Investigators Say U.S. Troops Tried to Cover Up Evidence in Botched Raid - NYTimes.com

SO

As U.S. Admits Killing and Covering Up Pregnant Afghan Women's Murder, Karzai Goes Rogue | World | AlterNet

AWESOME.



This isn't awesome.

It's a damn mess.

Screw you people for cheering over it. That's some seriously sick ****ed-up **** right there.


I don't have a problem with the military in and of itself. I come from a long line of people who were proud to serve. I'm down with protecting your country.

This ain't it.
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I remember reading a book... Looong time ago when I was a kid. Ficticious book but a good one. And it described how masses of people would watch videos of people being exploded. Their body parts and limbs flying through the air in a horrific display of voilence. And the people cheer with glee. Good book. Can't remember if it was Brave New World though. :( Damn my stoner brain.
 
texmaster said:
Exactly but hell, lets wait until they actually kill someone before reacting in a war zone!

Can you imagine 1942? I'm sorry, you can't attack those Nazi troops. They look at ease and are not attacking anyone at the moment. No it doesn't matter that they're armed. They're just hiding behind a building while allied vehicles are coming up the road.
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The difference between the insurgents and the German military is that the insurgents use liberal weaknesses to get Americans and the rest of the world against the U.S. military: they use children as shields.

And all of a sudden it's the U.S. military who are the bad guys! WTF?! :hm
 
dirtpoorchris said:
I remember reading a book... Looong time ago when I was a kid. Ficticious book but a good one. And it described how masses of people would watch videos of people being exploded. Their body parts and limbs flying through the air in a horrific display of voilence. And the people cheer with glee. Good book. Can't remember if it was Brave New World though. :( Damn my stoner brain.
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I can't put my finger on it either, but my gut tells me it was 1984.
 
Politics101 said:
The video clearly shows some of the men were armed. It's not the U.S. military's fault the insurgents were using children as a human shield. Despicable.
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Totally agree!
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
You know, I tried, but I just couldn't read this whole thread.

All the AMERICA **** YEAH has made me nauseous, and as if that weren't bad enough, as if the OUR MILITARY IS SO AWEOME and WE ROCK SO HARD wasn't enough to make me vomit hate all over some of you, we get justifications and cheering for the contents of that video.

Oh, great. Just ****ing great.

Look, if some of you want to argue that it's not our fault someone else used human shields, fine. If you want to argue that that blood is on someone else's hands, alright, I guess. It's a seriously gray area in the already muddied code of war-time ethics, so I guess I can tolerate an argument along those lines.

But cheering? At the death of children?

**** you, ****necks. I don't need to point you out, you know exactly who the **** you sick mother****ers are.

Oh yes, our military is just so awesome. It's JUST

Afghan Investigators Say U.S. Troops Tried to Cover Up Evidence in Botched Raid - NYTimes.com

SO

As U.S. Admits Killing and Covering Up Pregnant Afghan Women's Murder, Karzai Goes Rogue | World | AlterNet

AWESOME.



This isn't awesome.

It's a damn mess.

Screw you people for cheering over it. That's some seriously sick ****ed-up **** right there.


I don't have a problem with the military in and of itself. I come from a long line of people who were proud to serve. I'm down with protecting your country.

This ain't it.
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Party pooper. :rofl
 
Politics101 said:
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but during war it is kill or be killed. From the looks of the video, there was a every reason to believe the insurgents had weapons, especially at the point in the video where a man is crouching around a corner with what looks to be like an RPG.

Someone was going to die that day, and it sure wasn't going to be on the side of the U.S. military. Not today.

To be most effective, the attack by the Apache and how the crew handled the threat is not random behavior.
Click to expand...

And earlier I said I understood why at first they shot because it did look like he was holding an RPG. MY problem was after that part.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
You know, I tried, but I just couldn't read this whole thread.

All the AMERICA **** YEAH has made me nauseous, and as if that weren't bad enough, as if the OUR MILITARY IS SO AWEOME and WE ROCK SO HARD wasn't enough to make me vomit hate all over some of you, we get justifications and cheering for the contents of that video.

Oh, great. Just ****ing great.

Look, if some of you want to argue that it's not our fault someone else used human shields, fine. If you want to argue that that blood is on someone else's hands, alright, I guess. It's a seriously gray area in the already muddied code of war-time ethics, so I guess I can tolerate an argument along those lines.

But cheering? At the death of children?

**** you, ****necks. I don't need to point you out, you know exactly who the **** you sick mother****ers are.

Oh yes, our military is just so awesome. It's JUST

Afghan Investigators Say U.S. Troops Tried to Cover Up Evidence in Botched Raid - NYTimes.com

SO

As U.S. Admits Killing and Covering Up Pregnant Afghan Women's Murder, Karzai Goes Rogue | World | AlterNet

AWESOME.



This isn't awesome.

It's a damn mess.

Screw you people for cheering over it. That's some seriously sick ****ed-up **** right there.


I don't have a problem with the military in and of itself. I come from a long line of people who were proud to serve. I'm down with protecting your country.

This ain't it.
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For the record the kids were wounded not killed.
 
soccerboy22 said:
And earlier I said I understood why at first they shot because it did look like he was holding an RPG. MY problem was after that part.
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Now I remember. :doh :stars: Lot's happened since then. It was nothing personal. :)
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
I can't put my finger on it either, but my gut tells me it was 1984.
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I don't remember any such thing in "1984".

All I know is - who is at fault? The people who put innocents in harms way or the ones who are given a directive to take out strategic points? I'm sorry but while I hate, hate, HATE to see/hear about innocents getting caught in the crossfire of war, I do realize that the scuzbags that PUT innocents *knowingly* in the line of fire in order to protect their own sorry asses, are the ones we really should be condemning.

I'm not a rah rah fan of war at all. I've lost family and a lot of friends in this way... but to place blame on one half of the equation without weighing the reasons WHY those innocents were put there to *begin* with... ? Disingenuous.
 
For years now we've been dealing with a situation where the enemy:
...does not wear uniforms.
...hides among the civilian population.
...uses human shields or hides among civilians after an attack, or during an attack.

As I understand it some kind of engagement was going on very close by between coalition troops and militants.

These people were seen in the battle area, or very near it. They appeared to be armed. An assumption was made that they were hostile. This is not an unreasonable assumption give the facts above.

There were a couple of reporters apparently mixed in with the possible-militants. The troops didn't know they were there, had not been advised of same ahead of time apparently.

At one point I saw, sticking around a corner, something cylindrical looking. It didn't look much like a camera. If I had been thinking in terms of hostiles and worrying about having missles or rocket propelled grenades shot at me, I might have identified that as a possible RPG or missle launcher as well.

The initial engagement, of the 8 men who seemed like they might be hiding and waiting for the vehicles to go by, was not unreasonable given the circumstances.

As for the van that attempted to pick up the wounded or bodies... granted that doesn't look so good. However there may well be contextual reasons that we are not aware of. Possibly there has been an established pattern of other militants showing up to evac dead/wounded militants, and they were operating on that assumption. There was no way of knowing there were children in the van... and as mentioned above, we've been dealing with an enemy who deliberately uses women and children as shields and "martyrs" for propanganda purposes.

Calling it murder is going too far. This was a battle zone in the middle of a counterinsurgency war. People running around in such an area engaging in any questionable behavior are subject to getting shot. It happens. It isn't new.

In combat, if you err on the side of aggression you are more likely to survive than if you err on the side of timidity or restraint. This is something that needs to be thoroughly understood before getting too heavy into criticising soldier's actions.

As for the way the airmen and gunners were talking... well, they aren't playing Monopoly here. The job of soldiers is to kill people and break things. Like cops, docs, nurses, EMS and firemen, a certain type of peculiar humor that outsiders don't (can't) understand tends to break through during stressful moments, used as a shield against emotional reactions that you don't have time for. That's the best I know how to explain it.

For several years now, everyone we've killed in Iraq was a civilian. Many of them were "civilians" who happened to be armed and who had intent to attack coalition forces (ie militants, terrorists...they don't wear uniforms!). I'm sure some were just people in the wrong place at the wrong time. It is regrettable but it happens.
 
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Politics101 said:
The difference between the insurgents and the German military is that the insurgents use liberal weaknesses to get Americans and the rest of the world against the U.S. military: they use children as shields.

And all of a sudden it's the U.S. military who are the bad guys! WTF?! :hm
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Never once did I see a single person pick up a child and put them in front of them as a shield. What I saw was a person drive up to someone that was bleeding to death. Then freak out. Then decide to try to put them in their car. Obviously the group of people that got massacred by the apache didnt see it or think it was targeting them. Why would anyone in the van think that they where going to be murdered? If so they obviously wouldn't have helped.
 
Politics101 said:
Now I remember. :doh :stars: Lot's happened since then. It was nothing personal. :)
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Didn't take it as anything personal sir. I was just letting you know that it was after that part I took issue with.
 
TheGirlNextDoor said:
I don't remember any such thing in "1984".
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dirtpoorhchris' remark brought to mind the 2 Minutes Hate.

TheGirlNextDoor said:
I'm not a rah rah fan of war at all. I've lost family and a lot of friends in this way... but to place blame on one half of the equation without weighing the reasons WHY those innocents were put there to *begin* with... ? Disingenuous.
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Well, I think I made it pretty obvious I wasn't yelling at someone like yourself. ;)

That said, I'm too emotionally exhausted to have the debate on the morals of the situation. I leave that for stronger stomachs.
 
First, I actually agree. The "Rah rah" America, **** Yeah!, type attitude for this is horribly wrong. That said, I only really saw one person doing this massively in this thread and think it was mostly tongue in cheek. There is nothing great, or awesome, or wonderful about that footage.

Second, despite that though, I am much like TheGirlNextDoor on this. Its regrettable, unfortunate, and sad...but its war. Yes, it may technically not be war (No, its not an occupation, the control of the country is NOT held by a hostile military force, its held by the Iraqi government who we are working in concert with), but in all logical and practical senses that's what it is. Civilians, especially those with no grasp of what war is like, sitting in arm chairs thousands of miles away judging a situation based on a short bit of footage put forward with the context and extra manipulations of the agenda of those showing it are not going to have a full grasp of what the situation really is. The U.S. military, as a whole, is an honorable and dedicated force of good people that unfortunately have to do not so good things often. Sometimes, often, things are not going to go 100% in war and if you are to live or not get your companions killed you have to err on the side of aggression rather than passivity.

I think Redress and Goshin, two people on different sides of the aisle, have really hit the situation home with their responses and views of it in this thread.
 
And that's a wrap. Thanks for stopping by everybody. :blowup:
 
Note that they had to get clearance from their higher command to engage the van. There was no discussion of weapons at that point. Higher command wasn't seeing video live. He heard a bunch of Iraqis had weapons, were killed and a van drove up to help them. Was the van trying to get a high value target away from the kill zone? engage.
 
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