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Thread: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    I wasn't talking about the Geneva convention... rather the specific rules of engagement at the time of this video. Which, unless I can be corrected was to the effect that once the enemy is 'downed' to cease fire so that they might be captured.

    He fired at the first group until they were all downed, he shot a second time and there was only the one guy left crawling.
    [/quote]

    I saw the helicopter taking the video firing two short bursts one on top of another to insure that all of the men were hit.

    Then the van showed up and the two guys opened the door and picked up the downed reporter (it turned out),
    And attempted to aid members from a group of unlawful combatants escape capture and live to fight another day. This was a "reporter" traveling with a group of men carrying 2 RPG's, and an AK47 the very same weapons which U.S. troops were taking fire from in that sector at the same time.

    when the gunner says he say a gun and is given permission to fire again.
    Um he did see a gun, I saw a gun, and the video saw a gun:



    In fact it saw a gun and an RPG.

    That's totally misconstrued my issues with this situation... when I say 'excessive shooting' I mean, because he continued firing while everyone was downed he had violated, what I'm led to believe was the rules of engagement these soldiers were operating under at the time this video was taken.
    I saw two short bursts fired one on top of another to take out the targets, then later the 2nd helicopter fires, however, the camera's view is obstructed by the wall and it is unknown if members other than the guy running away, were down, dead, were trying to escape, reaching for their weapons, or all of the above. Furthermore; if it was a willful slaughter as you assert then they would have fired on the unarmed man who ran away.


    The armies that would attack people offering assistance to the wounded were at one point considered 'barbaric'.
    Oh really it was considered barbaric to stop the escape of the enemy and those who would attempt to aid in that escape?

    Now, I don't know much about millitary equipment, but a HUMVEE is NOT a VAN, not sure why you try to say it's a millitary issue vehicle.
    A Humvee is a civilian vehicle as well, but hay if you want to play that game then I guess a U.S. soldier could just use a van to play out the exact same scenario and would be considered off limits.

    Are you sure you were watching the same video, because I mean, talking about weapons that weren't there, and the wrong type of vehicle... I'm just saying, maybe you should rewatch the video of the OP so we're not making verifiably false assertions to misconstrue what's being said.
    Ground troops found an AK47 and 2 RPGs on site after the firefight, try again.

    Actually, strictly speaking, once they were downed, they become 'non-combatants', which are allowed to receive aid... they were effectively executed non-combatants. If you're going to try and play it from that angle...
    When are you talking about in the video? Before or after we see the man running and then crawling away? Because before that it was two volleys of fire taking down the men and then a cease in the firing, and after that the view is obstructed by the wall.

    Though, even the specific rules of engagement clearly showed that they were only to fire on ARMED combatants... or else he wouldn't have lied about seeing weapons on those from the van in order to get permission to fire.
    Um wtf are you talking about he never claimed that the men from the van had weapons, he said they were picking up the wounded and possibly weapons and then repeated his request several times to get permission to engage and never asserted that the men from the van were armed, which is irrelevant anyways as per my scenario with the U.S. soldier stripping off his uniform and aiding in the escape of U.S. troops under fire.

    Someone in the millitary would be better to answer the question as to what consequences might be had about not following those rules of engagement, understandably there's a certain 'margin of error'... but if a person outright violates the rules... what typically happens?
    I'm not sure what the ROE is for assault helicopters as it's a completely different type of situation from ground troops who would have been able to take prisoners insuring that the enemy didn't escape which is why I think this scenario would be in accordance with the ROE.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    I would completely agree with you except for a couple small details :
    - This was not any sort of millitary vehicle, it was a van.
    A Humvee is a civilian and a military vehicle not that it makes a difference, if we replaced our Humvees with vans would that make them off limits?

    - Can it be determined if those civilians were even in the audible range of the helicopter? If yes, then it's possible that they used the children to attempt to prevent being fired on... if not, then it becomes more likely that it was simply a passer-by trying to help a wounded man to a hospital.
    Oh please there was a sizable contingent of ground troops in the area taking fire from insurgents, and their were at least two Apache helicopters flying in attack formation who had just opened up with a very loud machine gun.

    - how is lying to command about seeing weapons in hand where there was none justifiable?
    They never said the people in the van were armed they said that they were possibly picking up weapons.



    If those guys even had signs of a gun, or being any sort of 'threat' in any sense, I'd agree with you...
    Um he did see a gun and so did the video:



    The 2 RPGs and one AK47s were recovered by the ground troops after the firefight.

    but I mean really the gunner is sitting there like
    'come on, pick up a gun all you gotta do is pick up a gun' and then just announces that he sees a gun to get permission to shoot... Is that type of bloodlust really necessary?
    What? He was talking about the guy who was crawling and the guy didn't pick up a gun pilot didn't shoot at him. What minute in the video is that at? It didn't happen.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    [QUOTE=Agent Ferris;1058700953]




    I'd light the whole group up as well. Even if it was a camera. Being a "journalist" does not mean you can shield the enemy.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Because RPG's dont fit in vans?


    Please, you claim to have combat knowledge, but I struggle to see how you would look upon engaging a van that was rushing into a fire fight as anything other than prudent.
    That's your problem right there, you just make **** up to argue. They didn't rush into a fire fight, the shooting had ceased and a human was obviously struggling for his life, NOT looking for a weapon or doing anything other than trying to move.

    Besides, I never said it was prudent, heroic perhaps, but that's usually how heroism works.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    lmfao, so when a Humvee or an APV pulls up to pull out wounded Coalition troops they're off limits?
    So you didn't read the articles of the Geneva Convention I posted and instead decide to continue your fallacious nonsense?

    This was not an International Red Cross Vehicle or a Red Crescent vehicle and was not marked as such;
    It doesn't have to be, as you would know if you read the GC article I posted.

    furthermore, it was their fault for bringing children into a gunfight to use as human shields, that is a violation of both the Rome Statute and the Geneva Conventions
    You have no evidence that the children were used as human shields and in fact the video disproves your strawman all by itself.

    as was staging attacks within civilian sectors and not dressing in uniform or distinctive clothing.
    Irrelevant as stated in the GC articles I posted.

    Try and keep up we're talking about the actual laws of war not the fake laws which you people make up in your own head in attempts to defame those who actually obey the laws and customs of war and in attempts to defend actual war criminals.[/QUOTE]
    I posted the the facts for you so you should probably read what you are arguing about next time so that your asshat isn't so exposed.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    I'd light the whole group up as well. Even if it was a camera. Being a "journalist" does not mean you can shield the enemy.
    How do you come up with that? Oh right, you just made it up. Got it.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    And the people in the WTC were armed? Did you watch the video at all? I saw AT LEAST one Ak-47 and one possible RPG. Walk around with people like that you might get your head blown off. Cry me a river.

    I don't give a damn whether 9-11 and Iraq were connected. We should have taken Saddam out years ago. Hint to the libs: Shooting at American fighter jets is an act of war. THIS IS WHAT SEPARATES SADDAM FROM EVERY OTHER BRUTAL DICTATOR. Saddam shot at them for 12 years. Google it. I don't care if Bush said Saddam made green cheese and we didn't find any. They performed acts of war on a daily basis. No, Saddam needed to go. He killed 5000 of his own people with gas. If you don't think the Iraq war was justified then yes, I consider you pro-saddam. You are either pro-America, or pro-Saddam, pick a side, libs. I know it's something you don't like to do because that way you can ALWAYS weasel your way out if something goes wrong. Case in point, the Iraq war. Dozens of libs supported it, but when the SHTF, they suddenly try to back away. Unfortunately the internet is an ugly thing and liberal quotes about Saddam's threat to the US came back to haunt them. I say the Iraq war is what made the libs pretty much irrelevant. It showed they were the spineless cowards we always thought they were. And so no one goes running to the mods, I don't mean the libs on this board, I mean the ones in Washington.
    I fully understand the 911 thing. but what tie did those people walking in their own city streets have to do with it? Everyone in world is not responsible for 911. Please get a grip. We don't own or control the entire world. We are not Gods.
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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    So you didn't read the articles of the Geneva Convention I posted and instead decide to continue your fallacious nonsense?
    I didn't see them and I just read them nothing in there contradicts what I said, nothing in the GC allows for the aid of escape of wounded combatants to fight another day.

    It doesn't have to be, as you would know if you read the GC article I posted.
    No actually it said that an agreement can be made with local parties for them to extract the wounded, no such agreement was reached, these people came in using children as cover to aid in the escape of insurgents.

    You have no evidence that the children were used as human shields
    Yes actually I do, they brought children into a gun fight to help aid them in the extraction and escape of enemy combatants.

    and in fact the video disproves your strawman all by itself.
    How so?

    Irrelevant as stated in the GC articles I posted.
    No they didn't.


    I posted the the facts for you so you should probably read what you are arguing about next time so that your asshat isn't so exposed.
    Nothing in the GC allows for the escape of wounded enemies to rejoin their own ranks and fight another day. Apparently in your world it would be off limits to fire on a U.S. soldier who strips out of uniform, hops into an unmarked humvee, and goes into aid in the escape of his fellow soldiers who are under fire. Is that your contention yes or no?

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    You claim to be fully educated so I have to wonder what part of this do you not understand: "Persons who do not or can no longer take part in the hostilities are entitled to respect for their life and for their physical and mental integrity. Such persons must in all circumstances be protected and treated with humanity, without any unfavorable distinction whatever.

    It is forbidden to kill or wound an adversary who surrenders or who can no longer take part in the fighting.
    "
    None of these men surrendered, and it is unknown of their fighting condition when they are fired on a second time by the second Apache because the first Apache which fired and is taking the video has its view blocked by a wall.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    Apparently you didn't watch the video, there is only one weapon visible (a rifle of some kind, probably a 47) and no RPG.
    Apparently you have no idea what you're talking about:



    The AKM and two RPGs were recovered by ground troops after the attack.

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