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Thread: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by USA-1 View Post
    Bluffed? Saddam repeatedly declared no WMDs.
    Not only that... he was essentially telling Bush : Look, I'll do anything just don't bomb my country.

    Where Bush's diplomacy was along the lines of 'Do what we tell you to and we'll attack you anyway.'

    A trillion dollars and thousands of American lives and we have gained nothing.? We lost.
    Nah, I'm sure there's been millions made off Iraqi oil pipelines...

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by USA-1 View Post
    Bluffed? Saddam repeatedly declared no WMDs.
    A trillion dollars and thousands of American lives and we have gained nothing.? We lost.

    This is sad..... So you would take the word of this dictator?


    Let me ask you what do you know of the oilfor food program an its impact on the war?

    Also when did he let the inspectors have unfettered access?


    Sad really.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    So are we just going to ignore the the RPG and the small arms in this edited video and the fact that the troops these Apaches were assigned to were coming under fire from small arms and RPG's in the same sector at the time of the incident? And oh in regards to the children the war crime is staging attacks in civilian sectors and using civilians as cover, the use of human shields does not make one immune from counterattack as per the Rome Statute and the Geneva Conventions:

    Both Protocal 1 and article 28 of the Geneva Convention (IV) make clear that "the deliberate intermingling of civilians and combatants designed to create a situation in which any attack against combatants would necessarily entail an excessive number of casualties is a flagrant breach of the Law of International Armed Conflict," according to international law scholar Yoram Dinstein (see his The Conduct of International Armed Conflict, Cambridge University Press, 2004, pp. 129-130).

    Article 51 (7) of Protocal 1 states: "The presence or movements of the civilian population shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular attempts to sheild military objectives from attacks or to sheild, favour, or impede military operations." And the Geneva Convention (IV) holds that "the presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points of areas immune from military operations." (Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, 1949, Laws of Armed Conflict, 495, 511."

    Moreover, the Rome Statute is clear that "utilizing the presence of civilians or other protected persons to render certain points, areas, or military forces immune operations is recognized as a war crime by Article (2) (b) (xxiii)". (Dinstein, p. 130)

  4. #274
    Educator Alvin T. Grey's Avatar
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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    An unmarked van, in a city... imagine that.
    Yes I can imagine that. The moment he involved himself in the situation he bacame a threat.


    According to the footage. The combat had ceased for several minutes and there was a badly wounded person attempting to crawl away. A van with some locals probably thought it was safe to go help the man before he died. They were begging for the guy to pick up a weapon so they could finish him off. He was obviously badly wounded and it's extremely doubtful that someone in that condition would be looking to grab a weapon. It's OBVIOUS that he was horribly wounded and was probably in shock already and just blindly trying to crawl away. Let's not forget that it's clear from the video that there aren't even any weapons around for him to pick up.
    Firstly, it is not clear from the video that there are no weapons around. Weapons had already been identified triggering (no pun intended) the response from the helicopter.
    Secondly, it does not matter that the person identified as an insurgent was crawling away, the van was not marked as an ambulance that made it a legitimate target as it is assisting in the escape of an insurgent.
    Thirdly there is no visibility of what the van is carrying, and because it is not marked as an ambulance, there is no presumption that it is carrying out medical evaquation.


    There are rules of engagement and this isn't the jungle, it's a city street where civilians live and work.
    Yes it is. Welcome to the party. Confusing isn't it.

    Let's not loose sight of the fact that I agreed with the original action. It's the firing on that van, which turned out to be non-combatants who had children with them, they were probably just driving by when the shooting started and once the shooting was over they wanted to help a badly wounded person, that I have a disagreement with.
    A long time ago I did a tour on the border between Isreal and Lebanon. During periods of higher tension I've seen Hezzis piled in the back of ambulances, in police cars etc. I've heard first hand how they evaquate the dead and wounded to make after action assesments difficult and leave the civillians in order to make it look like a mistake.
    It's a standard tactic.

    And before someone jumps in and suggests bias on my part, you shoud see what the Isrealis were doing at the same time....
    If life gives you Melons you probably have dyslexia.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    So are we just going to ignore the the RPG and the small arms in this edited video and the fact that the troops these Apaches were assigned to were coming under fire from small arms and RPG's in the same sector at the time of the incident? And oh in regards to the children the war crime is staging attacks in civilian sectors and using civilians as cover, the use of human shields does not make one immune from counterattack as per the Rome Statute and the Geneva Conventions:

    Both Protocal 1 and article 28 of the Geneva Convention (IV) make clear that "the deliberate intermingling of civilians and combatants designed to create a situation in which any attack against combatants would necessarily entail an excessive number of casualties is a flagrant breach of the Law of International Armed Conflict," according to international law scholar Yoram Dinstein (see his The Conduct of International Armed Conflict, Cambridge University Press, 2004, pp. 129-130).

    Article 51 (7) of Protocal 1 states: "The presence or movements of the civilian population shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular attempts to sheild military objectives from attacks or to sheild, favour, or impede military operations." And the Geneva Convention (IV) holds that "the presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points of areas immune from military operations." (Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, 1949, Laws of Armed Conflict, 495, 511."

    Moreover, the Rome Statute is clear that "utilizing the presence of civilians or other protected persons to render certain points, areas, or military forces immune operations is recognized as a war crime by Article (2) (b) (xxiii)". (Dinstein, p. 130)
    And when Al-Queda signs the GCs that will apply.
    If life gives you Melons you probably have dyslexia.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    So are we just going to ignore the the RPG and the small arms in this edited video and the fact that the troops these Apaches were assigned to were coming under fire from small arms and RPG's in the same sector at the time of the incident? And oh in regards to the children the war crime is staging attacks in civilian sectors and using civilians as cover, the use of human shields does not make one immune from counterattack as per the Rome Statute and the Geneva Conventions:

    Both Protocal 1 and article 28 of the Geneva Convention (IV) make clear that "the deliberate intermingling of civilians and combatants designed to create a situation in which any attack against combatants would necessarily entail an excessive number of casualties is a flagrant breach of the Law of International Armed Conflict," according to international law scholar Yoram Dinstein (see his The Conduct of International Armed Conflict, Cambridge University Press, 2004, pp. 129-130).

    Article 51 (7) of Protocal 1 states: "The presence or movements of the civilian population shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular attempts to sheild military objectives from attacks or to sheild, favour, or impede military operations." And the Geneva Convention (IV) holds that "the presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points of areas immune from military operations." (Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, 1949, Laws of Armed Conflict, 495, 511."

    Moreover, the Rome Statute is clear that "utilizing the presence of civilians or other protected persons to render certain points, areas, or military forces immune operations is recognized as a war crime by Article (2) (b) (xxiii)". (Dinstein, p. 130)
    Apparently you didn't watch the video, there is only one weapon visible (a rifle of some kind, probably a 47) and no RPG.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    Apparently you didn't watch the video, there is only one weapon visible (a rifle of some kind, probably a 47) and no RPG.



    What was that dood holding crouched behind the wall?


    Apparently you didn't watch the video and have no idea what an AK or an RPG looks like.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin T. Grey View Post
    Yes I can imagine that. The moment he involved himself in the situation he bacame a threat.
    I see, so what's your opinion on how long one should wait after a "situation" before attempting to help a seriously wounded human?

    Firstly, it is not clear from the video that there are no weapons around.
    Really? Tell me what frame(s) to examine which clearly show a weapon near the wounded individual?

    Weapons had already been identified triggering (no pun intended) the response from the helicopter.
    Secondly, it does not matter that the person identified as an insurgent was crawling away, the van was not marked as an ambulance that made it a legitimate target as it is assisting in the escape of an insurgent.
    I see, so in your world we target the wounded because they are the enemy and apparently not worthy of human decency. Did you even hear anyone in the video wondering if it was just some local citizens trying to help the wounded? No, they simply appear to desire to shoot more people.

    Thirdly there is no visibility of what the van is carrying, and because it is not marked as an ambulance, there is no presumption that it is carrying out medical evaquation.
    Perhaps you should educate yourself.

    The essential rules of international humanitarian law

    Persons who do not or can no longer take part in the hostilities are entitled to respect for their life and for their physical and mental integrity. Such persons must in all circumstances be protected and treated with humanity, without any unfavorable distinction whatever.

    It is forbidden to kill or wound an adversary who surrenders or who can no longer take part in the fighting.
    Geneva conventions
    UN Convention on the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces (I)

    Yes it is. Welcome to the party. Confusing isn't it.
    Not really, been there, done that.

    A long time ago I did a tour on the border between Isreal and Lebanon. During periods of higher tension I've seen Hezzis piled in the back of ambulances, in police cars etc. I've heard first hand how they evaquate the dead and wounded to make after action assesments difficult and leave the civillians in order to make it look like a mistake.
    It's a standard tactic.
    Too bad it's pretty obvious that's not the case here.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin T. Grey View Post
    And when Al-Queda signs the GCs that will apply.
    CHAPTER I
    General Provisions

    * Article 1. The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances.

    * Article 2. In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peacetime, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

    The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.

    Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.

    * Article 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:
    o (1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
    + (a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
    + (b) taking of hostages;
    + (c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
    + (d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
    You should probably learn a bit more about the agreed upon rules before playing the game.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    I see, so what's your opinion on how long one should wait after a "situation" before attempting to help a seriously wounded human?
    Until the people trained and permitted to enter the situation arrive. Or at least drop off the kiddies first....

    Really? Tell me what frame(s) to examine which clearly show a weapon near the wounded individual?
    The group of armed individuals and the one mistaken for an RPG were identified and engaged. Those weapons did not mysteriously disappear. they were still at the scene.


    I see, so in your world we target the wounded because they are the enemy and apparently not worthy of human decency. Did you even hear anyone in the video wondering if it was just some local citizens trying to help the wounded? No, they simply appear to desire to shoot more people.
    You allow the evaquation of wounded in marked veichles of either side. Any other participant can be deemed hostile.


    I'm fully educated in the matter, considering I had to enforce it. Bear in mind that the van was unmarked, the insurgent was mobile and moving away, and the driver was aiding in the escape of said insurgent (thus he was not hors de combat) both the insurgent and the driver were legitimate targets.


    Not really, been there, done that.
    Then you should understand that you don't walk around a combat zone dressed as the enemy and carrying enemy weapons without the risk of getting slotted. You also don't drive a van full of kids into an area where an attack helicopter is still orbiting after engaging said insurgents.
    You drive the kids as far away as possible.


    Too bad it's pretty obvious that's not the case here.
    Yes, it is too bad. - Stuff happens and the blame lays squarely at the foot of the driver.
    If life gives you Melons you probably have dyslexia.

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