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Thread: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

  1. #161
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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    For the record, I am not an Apache pilot. However, as a Foward Observer for Infantry units, I have habitually utilized them in combat for CCA (close combat attack), recon and my "eyes" during missions, because they can observe things I cannot see. Every single time (dozens) that I have utilized Apaches and Kiowas in combat, they have done a magnificent job and have been totally professional.

    I watched the video five times so that I could see everything. Truth be told, I am on the side of the pilots because I believe as Soldiers, they are good and honest people who are trying to do their jobs and keep the ground elements safe. I am trying to remain objective, though for analytical purposes.

    In this context, there were ground elements in what's called a "TIC" or Troops in Contact, just down the street. When that is the case, the observer or ground leader controlling the A/C is also responsible for what is engaged, not just the pilots. "Bushmaster" and "Hotel" elements, from what I gather could not see what the pilots were looking at, due to the fact they were in a TIC close by. That is excusable. From that point, it becomes the pilot's responsibility to engage targets of opportunity. The only problem is that the pilots can't see as well as the observer on the ground.

    The Iraqis in the video did not use very good judgement. There was a TIC not far from where they were, so you can assume they heard the gunfire and knew what was going on. You can also probably assume they saw the A/C monitoring their position. It was also not wise for them to band together and "run to the sound of the guns". It does appear that they are coming together as a group and it could be construed that they are preparing for an ambush or at least headed to the gunfight to participate. I'll give the pilots a pass on that.

    The pilots know that this video is recording and that it can be used for a 15-6 investigation. They also know their conversations are recorded. I think that they were unprofessional at times on the radio (swearing, celebration, etc). But the point is that these weren't rogue dudes just murdering people. They knew all the events that day were recorded; one must assume they thought they were in the right.

    I do see how they mistaked the long-lense camera for an RPG. It looked like an RPG to me. I didn't notice any AK-47s, though; but I understand the fog of war. In that particular area, there had been a lot of violence (this is during the bloodiest part of the The Surge, if you recall) and I am making the assumption the pilots had been in previous firefights similar to this. As for firing on the vehicle, I am not sure what the ROE is. There was no evidence of weapons coming from the van or possessed by anyone in the van; however, if they are "rescuing" percieved insurgents, then they are not good guys. How are the pilots to know that they are just good samaritans and not aiding the enemy? Also, it's probably not wise to approach a combat situation when you have your children with you. I do believe the pilots could have restrained from engaging the vehicle and could have easily tracked it's movement and reported it to the ground element. I'm not Monday morning quarterbacking, but it was an option.

    I picked up on this story two days ago at a COIN message board (SWC) that I post at. Most of the posters at SWC are active duty or retired military, most of all have combat experience. Not everyone is giving the pilots a pass on this one, including me. I think things could have gone differently.

    I have had many occasions in combat when I've had to hold my fire and that of my unit. It's not easy, but it's reality. I can honestly say that I have never engaged non-combatants (to my knowledge) and I can sleep at night. However, I do not find the pilots negligent in this instance. I think there were a few times when they could have used better judgement and kept the finger off the trigger; but I wasn't there. I don't know all the details, so I'm not going to claim they are guilty of anything.

    These guys now have to sleep at night knowing they killed and wounded unarmed civilians, journalists and children. That is punishment enough. We ask a lot of not only pilots, but all troops in combat to make split second decisions that may or may not cost their lives, their buddies' lives or the lives of the innocent and the wicked a like. It's a tough job and I think as a society, we should always be on the side of the Soldier unless overwhelming evidence indicates otherwise.

    War is Hell. People die. It sucks.

    I'm not trying to make excuses. I'm just asking people to try and understand what these guys were going through.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by The Uncola View Post
    It's disturbing to read the kinds of insane justification that some people are willing to use for the slaughtering of UNARMED human beings, simply because it was "our side" that did it. Disgusting.



    Watching that video, I would have made the same assumption that these people were armed and acting in a hostile manner. croucing behind that wall and peering around that corner with that large long object.... scary stuff....
    Last edited by ReverendHellh0und; 04-07-10 at 10:36 AM.
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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    It was not necessary. They did not have to engage in a group of men standing around over a gun in a country where guns are probably a common sight.
    Yes, guns are a common site because the Taliban and extremist violence are common sites. A group of men carrying RPG's and AK47's in an area in suburban Baghdad which is subject to frequent violence should under every circumstance be met with suspicion by observing military personnel. As well as being fully aware of the presence of the US military Apache and doing nothing to act on it for the sake of there own lives is both irresponsible and worrisome.
    The military are not there to take there chances.
    Civilians who are irresponsible and engage in activity deemed suspicious and threatening cannot have my sympathies when engaged by the military.

    From the video, no one was shooting at anyone. No one was engaging in any, as far as I could see hostile activity.
    No one was in any immediate danger.
    How do you know that? They had RPG's. The area is home to many civilians. What you suggest is pure negligence. The US military was merely acting in the interests of the security of the Iraqi people. When the military makes mistakes because stupid citizens provoked an attack, you cannot hold us responsible.
    Last edited by MetalGear; 04-07-10 at 10:49 AM.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by kansaswhig View Post
    For the record, I am not an Apache pilot. However, as a Foward Observer for Infantry units, I have habitually utilized them in combat for CCA (close combat attack), recon and my "eyes" during missions, because they can observe things I cannot see. Every single time (dozens) that I have utilized Apaches and Kiowas in combat, they have done a magnificent job and have been totally professional.

    I watched the video five times so that I could see everything. Truth be told, I am on the side of the pilots because I believe as Soldiers, they are good and honest people who are trying to do their jobs and keep the ground elements safe. I am trying to remain objective, though for analytical purposes.

    In this context, there were ground elements in what's called a "TIC" or Troops in Contact, just down the street. When that is the case, the observer or ground leader controlling the A/C is also responsible for what is engaged, not just the pilots. "Bushmaster" and "Hotel" elements, from what I gather could not see what the pilots were looking at, due to the fact they were in a TIC close by. That is excusable. From that point, it becomes the pilot's responsibility to engage targets of opportunity. The only problem is that the pilots can't see as well as the observer on the ground.

    The Iraqis in the video did not use very good judgement. There was a TIC not far from where they were, so you can assume they heard the gunfire and knew what was going on. You can also probably assume they saw the A/C monitoring their position. It was also not wise for them to band together and "run to the sound of the guns". It does appear that they are coming together as a group and it could be construed that they are preparing for an ambush or at least headed to the gunfight to participate. I'll give the pilots a pass on that.

    The pilots know that this video is recording and that it can be used for a 15-6 investigation. They also know their conversations are recorded. I think that they were unprofessional at times on the radio (swearing, celebration, etc). But the point is that these weren't rogue dudes just murdering people. They knew all the events that day were recorded; one must assume they thought they were in the right.

    I do see how they mistaked the long-lense camera for an RPG. It looked like an RPG to me. I didn't notice any AK-47s, though; but I understand the fog of war. In that particular area, there had been a lot of violence (this is during the bloodiest part of the The Surge, if you recall) and I am making the assumption the pilots had been in previous firefights similar to this. As for firing on the vehicle, I am not sure what the ROE is. There was no evidence of weapons coming from the van or possessed by anyone in the van; however, if they are "rescuing" percieved insurgents, then they are not good guys. How are the pilots to know that they are just good samaritans and not aiding the enemy? Also, it's probably not wise to approach a combat situation when you have your children with you. I do believe the pilots could have restrained from engaging the vehicle and could have easily tracked it's movement and reported it to the ground element. I'm not Monday morning quarterbacking, but it was an option.

    I picked up on this story two days ago at a COIN message board (SWC) that I post at. Most of the posters at SWC are active duty or retired military, most of all have combat experience. Not everyone is giving the pilots a pass on this one, including me. I think things could have gone differently.

    I have had many occasions in combat when I've had to hold my fire and that of my unit. It's not easy, but it's reality. I can honestly say that I have never engaged non-combatants (to my knowledge) and I can sleep at night. However, I do not find the pilots negligent in this instance. I think there were a few times when they could have used better judgement and kept the finger off the trigger; but I wasn't there. I don't know all the details, so I'm not going to claim they are guilty of anything.

    These guys now have to sleep at night knowing they killed and wounded unarmed civilians, journalists and children. That is punishment enough. We ask a lot of not only pilots, but all troops in combat to make split second decisions that may or may not cost their lives, their buddies' lives or the lives of the innocent and the wicked a like. It's a tough job and I think as a society, we should always be on the side of the Soldier unless overwhelming evidence indicates otherwise.

    War is Hell. People die. It sucks.

    I'm not trying to make excuses. I'm just asking people to try and understand what these guys were going through.
    I wouldn't have been so hard on the Apache crew. They engaged an unmarked vehicle retrieving insurgents (remember they incorrectly identified the group as insurgents). It's S.O.P for insurgents to remove the casualties (at least it was Hezzis and is with the Talliban) because it makes it difficult for the oposition to figure out whether they killed anything or not. Thats a big psychological advantage.

    And when dealing with terrorists you can't take anything for granted. I've seen Hezzis piled into the rear of ambulances, in police cars etc. Ive seen bombs being packed into the bucket of a JCB (backhoe?) and the boot of a taxi.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin T. Grey View Post
    I wouldn't have been so hard on the Apache crew. They engaged an unmarked vehicle retrieving insurgents (remember they incorrectly identified the group as insurgents). It's S.O.P for insurgents to remove the casualties (at least it was Hezzis and is with the Talliban) because it makes it difficult for the oposition to figure out whether they killed anything or not. Thats a big psychological advantage.
    Yeah, that's why I said I didn't know what the ROE was with removal of bodies or the wounded. All I'm saying is that they didn't have to smoke them. There were other options. If the ROE was kill those removing bodies and aiding the wounded, then that's what it is. I'm just saying I don't know.


    And when dealing with terrorists you can't take anything for granted. I've seen Hezzis piled into the rear of ambulances, in police cars etc. Ive seen bombs being packed into the bucket of a JCB (backhoe?) and the boot of a taxi.
    I hear you. Bombs aren't too much of a threat to the birds.

  6. #166
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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    What planet were you on between 1991 and 2003?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Late 1980s onward, climaxing with Saddam re-basing his oil on the Euro instead of the Dollar. Saddam was the lesser of 2 evils when we installed him to combat our mutual enemy, Iran, but then he turned on us. He bit the hand that fed him.
    He didnt mess with America

    he messed with the US government interests outside of America
    Happy Hanukkah Cheerfull Kwanzaa
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  7. #167
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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by kansaswhig View Post


    The Iraqis in the video did not use very good judgement. There was a TIC not far from where they were, so you can assume they heard the gunfire and knew what was going on. You can also probably assume they saw the A/C monitoring their position. It was also not wise for them to band together and "run to the sound of the guns". It does appear that they are coming together as a group and it could be construed that they are preparing for an ambush or at least headed to the gunfight to participate. I'll give the pilots a pass on that.
    I don't know about all the hearing the gunfire thingy. Can't really say on any gunshots before the apache ambush. But, I've seen one apache video where a farmer was putting down plow markers and got shot at by the apache. Now somehow even though the guy was right on target his first shot at the guy renders no hits. Now even though these bullets are wizzing what must be inches away from the apache target the farmer keeps on doing what he was doing and never noticed he was being shot at.

    Now with all this superior equipment why couldn't they just disable the van by shooting at the engine for half a second? Or let them know you may kill them but light up the wall next to them instead and see if they drop and put their hands up, run, keep helping, or become hostile. How hard is it to follow a van in a badass apache and blair "STOP" in their language and kill them only if they don't?

    They obviously somehow didn't see the apache. Or if they did they didn't think it would ever shoot at them. Otherwise one of them would have taken cover before it lit um up.
    Last edited by dirtpoorchris; 04-07-10 at 02:26 PM.
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  8. #168
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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalGear View Post

    How do you know that? They had RPG's. The area is home to many civilians. What you suggest is pure negligence. The US military was merely acting in the interests of the security of the Iraqi people. When the military makes mistakes because stupid citizens provoked an attack, you cannot hold us responsible.
    MetalGear,
    I thought it has already been decided that they did not have RPG's. What the pilots claimed to have been RPG's did not look anything like RPG's, maybe since you have served in the frontline of the war against Iraq with the SAS and $hit you can perhaps tell me does Iraq have an RPG that looks like a camera?

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    I don't know about all the hearing the gunfire thingy. Can't really say on any gunshots before the apache ambush. But, I've seen one apache video where a farmer was putting down plow markers and got shot at by the apache. Now somehow even though the guy was right on target his first shot at the guy renders no hits. Now even though these bullets are wizzing what must be inches away from the apache target the farmer keeps on doing what he was doing and never noticed he was being shot at.

    Now with all this superior equipment why couldn't they just disable the van by shooting at the engine for half a second? Or let them know you may kill them but light up the wall next to them instead and see if they drop and put their hands up, run, keep helping, or become hostile. How hard is it to follow a van in a badass apache and blair "STOP" in their language and kill them only if they don't?

    They obviously somehow didn't see the apache. Or if they did they didn't think it would ever shoot at them. Otherwise one of them would have taken cover before it lit um up.
    Just out of curiosity...whats a 'plow marker'? Where can one buy a 'plow marker'? Oh...and I dont mean the rigid orange markers that attach to plows...I mean the kind of plows that apparently work by being thrown into a field...

    Ive seen the video too. I'd be most intrigued to know what kind of 'plow markers' are the shape and size of the 'plow markers' thrown into the field. And Id be FASCINATED to learn why they hadnt used it prior to throwing it in the field. And VERY intrigued as to why they suddenly felt the need to toss said 'plow marker' haphazardly into the field after being taken from the back seat of a car...where it apparently wasnt doing a whole lot of good PRIOR to being thrown into the field...to...what purpose...I dont really know...as I havent seen them used on ANY ranch or farm applications before...

  10. #170
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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    He didnt mess with America

    he messed with the US government interests outside of America
    And THAT is PRECISELY why Bill Clinton lit him up 8 times during his presidency!

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