Page 11 of 45 FirstFirst ... 91011121321 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 110 of 447

Thread: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

  1. #101
    Slayer of the DP Newsbot
    danarhea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    39,746

    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    The video tape is horrible, but in some wars, it is difficult to tell who the enemy is and who are the civilians. And, sometimes, the enemy can be women and children, and frequently have been. While I am against mass killings, sometimes it can't be helped, when you don't know who the enemy actually is. The phrase "Kill them all, and let God sort them out" was used by Alexander Haig during the Vietnam war, but the expression has been used in almost every war ever fought, and actually goes all the way back to the Middle Ages.

    It is unfortunate that civilians die in war, but it is also a fact that they do. Untold thousands of civilians died on both sides during WWII. "War is hell", so Sherman said, and he was so right. It is one good reason to only fight one as a last resort, and in Iraq, we failed to follow that advise. The result is hell on Earth for some. To question whether we should have gone into Iraq in the first place is one thing, but we are at war now, and the deed is done. As a result, civilians get killed.

    Mistakes will always be made in war, and people will die. We are only human, and that applies to commanders on the ground, as well as armchair quarterbacks back here in the US. I am not going to judge anyone, based on the tapes, because I am not over there. I am here at my computer. However, that does not make these deaths any less horrible, and horrible is what they are. In the end, all you can say about war is that it is what it is.

    When it is all over, I hope my fellow countrymen will pray for those unfortunates who died for nothing, as well as for our soldiers who gave their last measure over there. Do we have the capacity to remember "theirs" as well as "ours"? I believe we do, and I also believe we must. We should remember this as a stark reminder of what war really is, not fun and games, but death on a massive scale, so that we are more careful about starting one in the future.
    Last edited by danarhea; 04-05-10 at 11:40 PM.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

  2. #102
    Sage
    Khayembii Communique's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Milwaukee, WI
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 06:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    7,887

    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster
    Can you imagine 1942? I'm sorry, you can't attack those Nazi troops.
    This presumes you knew they were Nazi troops, which is why this example doesn't apply at all here and is completely silly and stupid.

    Look, you can use the idiotic "this is war!" excuse to justify anything. Bomb a hospital? Well, too bad, this is war! People die every day, because they're in a war! Rape and murder civilians? This is war! That kind of stuff is unfortunate but that's what happens in a war! The mass systematic extermination of entire ethnic/religious groups? Oh well, too bad, take it in stride, because this is war!

    So what kind of excuse is this? Essentially, it is an excuse for any single action taken by any single individual as long as it is in a war. Why are people using this defense? Because with this video blatantly showing the murder of civilians by US forces they don't have any other explanation. And they're certainly not going to give up their lemming-like devotion to the greatest country on earth.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  3. #103
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,971

    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Nice straw man.

    People aren't using "This is war" to justify everything. Using your emotional pleas of "bombing a hospital" or "raping someone" is pathetic low debating on your part, showing the weak stance you actually have on this.

    This was not a case of them going "hey look, its some ****ing rag-head kids and unarmed folks. Lets shoot'em up". This was not raping people or purposefully firing on a hospital because they dislike sick people. This was a situation in a hot spot where they saw what they believed to be enemy forces with weapons, including potentially a weapon that could actually have a severe impact on them, and acted accordingly.

    Is it unfortunate that it happened this way? Yes. But attempting to compare it to purposefully raping a person or exterminating a race is absolute bull**** on your part and nothing but pure and utter ignorance.

    "This is war" is not a way to "justify anything", however simply because it isn't a justification for any and all atrocities doesn't mean its not a statement and sentiment that can explain some unfortunate acts whose purpose and intent was in no way evil nor vicious in their nature. Just because an excuse or justification, when used in an extreme circumstance, does not work does not mean its unfit for any situation.

  4. #104
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Last Seen
    12-26-10 @ 06:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    8,083

    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalGear View Post
    Wikileaks can be found here:

    WikiLeaks

    The video can be viewed here:

    YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.



    BBC News - WikiLeaks posts 'killing' video

    I served in Iraq and witnessed many strategic errors that cost the lives of many innocents, but unfortunately war is trial and error and we need to learn from our mistakes and minimize the risk while increasing success.

    This footage depicts one of those mistakes, but the killings where unintentional and nobody is to blame but those who ordered the operation. I know as i have seen that there are many more videos yet to be brought to the public eye and its only a matter of time they do.
    Footage like this is why the American government now controls media access to their campaign zones. If enough videos like this got posted, the war would be ended in rapid sequence. Instead, censorship ensures that the running propaganda of "calculated attacks with minimal casualties" can continue to spin.

    The media should have full access to document cases like this so that the tax payers who are funding this war can decide for themselves if their money is being put to good use or not.

    The whole argument that death is inevitable in war is such a cop out because war itself does not need to be inevitable. War is the result of a complete and utter breakdown of human effort and desire to find non-violent solutions. The war in Iraq, especially, was the result of a pathetic excuse for diplomacy and a blatant exaggeration and cover up of the facts.

    The war in Iraq did not have to happen. The word "inevitable" makes me wretch, in this case.

  5. #105
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:47 AM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    93,316
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    This presumes you knew they were Nazi troops, which is why this example doesn't apply at all here and is completely silly and stupid.

    Look, you can use the idiotic "this is war!" excuse to justify anything. Bomb a hospital? Well, too bad, this is war! People die every day, because they're in a war! Rape and murder civilians? This is war! That kind of stuff is unfortunate but that's what happens in a war! The mass systematic extermination of entire ethnic/religious groups? Oh well, too bad, take it in stride, because this is war!

    So what kind of excuse is this? Essentially, it is an excuse for any single action taken by any single individual as long as it is in a war. Why are people using this defense? Because with this video blatantly showing the murder of civilians by US forces they don't have any other explanation. And they're certainly not going to give up their lemming-like devotion to the greatest country on earth.
    Well, not in this day and age. You are right, the WW2 comparisons are stupid. This is not the 1940's. The world has changed, standards have changed, how things are done has changed.

    Targeting a hospital now is clearly wrong. However, mistakes do happen, and hospitals may in fact get bombed. Mistakes happen in every line of work, and when you are in a line that involved a ton of high explosives, the mistakes are painful. It's a tragedy when it does happen, but it does not make the military somehow bad people.

    Which leads us to this video. Mistakes are almost certainly made. Some young men who are trying to protect the ground forces err on the side of being overaggressive, and probably took out a bunch of innocents, and certainly 2 innocent photographers. It's tragic, it sucks, I wish to god things like that did not happen. Unfortunately, they do, and it is impossible to eliminate mistakes like this. The military does put a lot of effort into minimizing them, sometimes at the risk of our own troops. I will promise you that the crew of the Apache went over the video with superiors, who pointed out to them mistakes they made and how they could do better...it's done after every encounter.

    I remember a story of a guy who ended up getting out due to PTSD. He was manning a .50 cal at a roadblock. A car came at them and looked like it was not going to slow down. He had a split second to react. He opened fire, killed a man, his two kids and pregnant wife. He was taking her to the hospital to give birth. This poor guy may never be right after that(this is what I mean the stress they are under), but he acted properly for the situation. If it had been a car bomb and he did not open fire, the guys this man was tasked to protect would have been the ones who died.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  6. #106
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,971

    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    If every act of war was broadcast and showed to the average citizen there's probably a good bit we'd never get into any wars, even the ones those that are against all modern ones would approve of such as WW2.

    The fact of the matter is that the average citizen does not have the stomach to endure or witness such horrors that makes up war; its why not every person is fit to survive the rigors of the life of a soldier.

  7. #107
    Sage
    Khayembii Communique's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Milwaukee, WI
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 06:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    7,887

    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphline
    People aren't using "This is war" to justify everything. Using your emotional pleas of "bombing a hospital" or "raping someone" is pathetic low debating on your part, showing the weak stance you actually have on this.
    They are using it to dismiss any critical investigation into this issue. My point wasn't that they were using it to justify everything, but that it could be because it's simply a dismissal rather than an argument.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  8. #108
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Last Seen
    04-13-10 @ 04:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    240

    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    This presumes you knew they were Nazi troops, which is why this example doesn't apply at all here and is completely silly and stupid.

    Look, you can use the idiotic "this is war!" excuse to justify anything. Bomb a hospital? Well, too bad, this is war! People die every day, because they're in a war! Rape and murder civilians? This is war! That kind of stuff is unfortunate but that's what happens in a war! The mass systematic extermination of entire ethnic/religious groups? Oh well, too bad, take it in stride, because this is war!

    So what kind of excuse is this? Essentially, it is an excuse for any single action taken by any single individual as long as it is in a war. Why are people using this defense? Because with this video blatantly showing the murder of civilians by US forces they don't have any other explanation. And they're certainly not going to give up their lemming-like devotion to the greatest country on earth.
    I pretty much agree that these pilots acted over-zealously (they could use some serious work on their weapon-ID proficiency), but I'm hesitant to jump on the cold-blooded-murder-bandwagon. You're correct that "it's war" is not a sufficient justification for anything that takes place during conflict, but it must be recognized that ambiguity is inherent to armed conflict, especially one of this nature in which the enemy wantonly disregards the laws of war.

    I watched the video a couple of times and it seemed like there was a ground unit in the area, which could explain the pilots' desire to open fire without taking the time to properly ID their targets; paranoia can easily take over when you think your comrades are in mortal peril.

  9. #109
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,971

    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    They are using it to dismiss any critical investigation into this issue. My point wasn't that they were using it to justify everything, but that it could be because it's simply a dismissal rather than an argument.
    Because some people may stupidly use it to dismiss anything doesn't mean its not reasonable to dismiss it in this situation when why one thinks its worth dismissing is expanded upon.

    Read Goshin or Redress's posts, which both use the "That is war" justification and explain it in more detail. Dismissing their point because it COULD be used, or more attempted to be used, to excuse genocide is as idiotic and ignorant as simply saying "that is war" and leaving it as that. Its an asinine straw man that doesn't even really warrant discussion based on its pleas to emotion rather than substance.

    These men were not committing genocide, they were not raping someone, and at best you'd have a severe argument to truly label it as murder in the sense you're using it. An idiot trying to justify rape through the use of "That is war" has no more relevance to this topic and the dismissing of it by some people in this thread that have given further explanation than saying that the sky is blue.

  10. #110
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:47 AM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    93,316
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    They are using it to dismiss any critical investigation into this issue. My point wasn't that they were using it to justify everything, but that it could be because it's simply a dismissal rather than an argument.
    It's not a dismissal, it's an explanation. The first step in any military investigation is to determine why something happened. This is why. Young men under stress, in a war zone, wanting to protect the ground troops(this ideal is drilled into them from the beginning of their training, they are there to protect the ground troops, it is their job, their reason for existence), and they appear to have made mistakes. Next step is to determine what can be done to reduce the likelihood of it happening.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

Page 11 of 45 FirstFirst ... 91011121321 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •