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Thread: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

  1. #91
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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    For the record the kids were wounded not killed.
    That changes exactly one word of my post.

    My point, and my shining bog-green projectile of hate, stands.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    I can't put my finger on it either, but my gut tells me it was 1984.
    I don't remember any such thing in "1984".

    All I know is - who is at fault? The people who put innocents in harms way or the ones who are given a directive to take out strategic points? I'm sorry but while I hate, hate, HATE to see/hear about innocents getting caught in the crossfire of war, I do realize that the scuzbags that PUT innocents *knowingly* in the line of fire in order to protect their own sorry asses, are the ones we really should be condemning.

    I'm not a rah rah fan of war at all. I've lost family and a lot of friends in this way... but to place blame on one half of the equation without weighing the reasons WHY those innocents were put there to *begin* with... ? Disingenuous.
    Fool me once, shame on you.
    Fool me twice....shame on me.

  3. #93
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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    For years now we've been dealing with a situation where the enemy:
    ...does not wear uniforms.
    ...hides among the civilian population.
    ...uses human shields or hides among civilians after an attack, or during an attack.

    As I understand it some kind of engagement was going on very close by between coalition troops and militants.

    These people were seen in the battle area, or very near it. They appeared to be armed. An assumption was made that they were hostile. This is not an unreasonable assumption give the facts above.

    There were a couple of reporters apparently mixed in with the possible-militants. The troops didn't know they were there, had not been advised of same ahead of time apparently.

    At one point I saw, sticking around a corner, something cylindrical looking. It didn't look much like a camera. If I had been thinking in terms of hostiles and worrying about having missles or rocket propelled grenades shot at me, I might have identified that as a possible RPG or missle launcher as well.

    The initial engagement, of the 8 men who seemed like they might be hiding and waiting for the vehicles to go by, was not unreasonable given the circumstances.

    As for the van that attempted to pick up the wounded or bodies... granted that doesn't look so good. However there may well be contextual reasons that we are not aware of. Possibly there has been an established pattern of other militants showing up to evac dead/wounded militants, and they were operating on that assumption. There was no way of knowing there were children in the van... and as mentioned above, we've been dealing with an enemy who deliberately uses women and children as shields and "martyrs" for propanganda purposes.

    Calling it murder is going too far. This was a battle zone in the middle of a counterinsurgency war. People running around in such an area engaging in any questionable behavior are subject to getting shot. It happens. It isn't new.

    In combat, if you err on the side of aggression you are more likely to survive than if you err on the side of timidity or restraint. This is something that needs to be thoroughly understood before getting too heavy into criticising soldier's actions.

    As for the way the airmen and gunners were talking... well, they aren't playing Monopoly here. The job of soldiers is to kill people and break things. Like cops, docs, nurses, EMS and firemen, a certain type of peculiar humor that outsiders don't (can't) understand tends to break through during stressful moments, used as a shield against emotional reactions that you don't have time for. That's the best I know how to explain it.

    For several years now, everyone we've killed in Iraq was a civilian. Many of them were "civilians" who happened to be armed and who had intent to attack coalition forces (ie militants, terrorists...they don't wear uniforms!). I'm sure some were just people in the wrong place at the wrong time. It is regrettable but it happens.
    Last edited by Goshin; 04-05-10 at 10:48 PM.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Politics101 View Post
    The difference between the insurgents and the German military is that the insurgents use liberal weaknesses to get Americans and the rest of the world against the U.S. military: they use children as shields.

    And all of a sudden it's the U.S. military who are the bad guys! WTF?!
    Never once did I see a single person pick up a child and put them in front of them as a shield. What I saw was a person drive up to someone that was bleeding to death. Then freak out. Then decide to try to put them in their car. Obviously the group of people that got massacred by the apache didnt see it or think it was targeting them. Why would anyone in the van think that they where going to be murdered? If so they obviously wouldn't have helped.
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Politics101 View Post
    Now I remember. Lot's happened since then. It was nothing personal.
    Didn't take it as anything personal sir. I was just letting you know that it was after that part I took issue with.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    For the record the kids were wounded not killed.
    Thank the 'Lord of all that is True and Good' for small mercies.
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGirlNextDoor View Post
    I don't remember any such thing in "1984".
    dirtpoorhchris' remark brought to mind the 2 Minutes Hate.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGirlNextDoor View Post
    I'm not a rah rah fan of war at all. I've lost family and a lot of friends in this way... but to place blame on one half of the equation without weighing the reasons WHY those innocents were put there to *begin* with... ? Disingenuous.
    Well, I think I made it pretty obvious I wasn't yelling at someone like yourself.

    That said, I'm too emotionally exhausted to have the debate on the morals of the situation. I leave that for stronger stomachs.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    First, I actually agree. The "Rah rah" America, **** Yeah!, type attitude for this is horribly wrong. That said, I only really saw one person doing this massively in this thread and think it was mostly tongue in cheek. There is nothing great, or awesome, or wonderful about that footage.

    Second, despite that though, I am much like TheGirlNextDoor on this. Its regrettable, unfortunate, and sad...but its war. Yes, it may technically not be war (No, its not an occupation, the control of the country is NOT held by a hostile military force, its held by the Iraqi government who we are working in concert with), but in all logical and practical senses that's what it is. Civilians, especially those with no grasp of what war is like, sitting in arm chairs thousands of miles away judging a situation based on a short bit of footage put forward with the context and extra manipulations of the agenda of those showing it are not going to have a full grasp of what the situation really is. The U.S. military, as a whole, is an honorable and dedicated force of good people that unfortunately have to do not so good things often. Sometimes, often, things are not going to go 100% in war and if you are to live or not get your companions killed you have to err on the side of aggression rather than passivity.

    I think Redress and Goshin, two people on different sides of the aisle, have really hit the situation home with their responses and views of it in this thread.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    And that's a wrap. Thanks for stopping by everybody.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Note that they had to get clearance from their higher command to engage the van. There was no discussion of weapons at that point. Higher command wasn't seeing video live. He heard a bunch of Iraqis had weapons, were killed and a van drove up to help them. Was the van trying to get a high value target away from the kill zone? engage.

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