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Thread: Congressman Caught on Video: I dont care about the Constitution

  1. #61
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    Re: Congressman Caught on Video: I dont care about the Constitution

    The people" were not represented by Congress in full at the time the Amendment was put in place. At the time, the Senate represented the states. They were essentially ambassadors from the various state governments to the national government, installed to keep the national government from overreaching its authority and usurping the power of the individual states.
    You raise good points.

    Since it requires both the House and the Senate to pass a bill that then goes before the President for signature or veto, I believe your interpretation of the Amendment is erroneous.
    I dont believe its erroneos, I believe there is always room for interpetation and your point of view has logic too.


    Okay, let me rephrase.


    In other words, is this your opinion, or is it established precedent?


    It is my opinion.


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    Re: Congressman Caught on Video: I dont care about the Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by OxymoronP View Post
    Basically it is saying the State has a right to fill in the gaps based on their particular interests and conditions. But it also gives the Congress the ability to expand its capabilities based on changing needs and conditions. Hope that explains it better.
    No it is not. The Amendment explicitly says that powers not granted to the national granted are reserved to the states or the people.

    Where does the 10th specify that Congress has the ability to expand it's capabilities based on changing needs?

    It simply does not.

    It is a vehicle that allows us to adjust the constitution based on the nations needs. The constitutions power comes from its ability to adjust to the changes in society, but still maintaining some core principles.
    Where do you get these ideas from. Your interpetation completely neuters the 10th Amendment and renders the concept of limited government meaningless.

    You're quite literally saying that the 10th Amendment has zero meaning because the Congress can simply grant itself unlimited authority based on something called changing conditions...absurd.

    Just like were are sanctioned by the goverment to fill in the census or face loss of funds and representation to our commmunity.
    Huh? At the least, the census is constitutional function and thecitizxens are required to complete. The sanction is not the risk of communities losing federal funding opportunities. The sanction is criminal prosecution. Obamacare requires the purchase of a private service. How is that anything at all like completing a constitutional process?

    If the federal goverment forced people to pledge allegiance to Obama, or face jail or expulsion then I can see your point. Taxing people who are costing other people money because they fail to insure themselves, is really a fair practice.
    Sheesh...follow your logic. You are explicitly saying that the national government has unlimited authority to do whatever it wants. This is absurd not only constitutionally, but morally as well.

    I can see that you prefer to use the Congress to simply impose your preferences on everyone else...nothing else explains such an ignorant and foolish perception of the Constitution and the unerlying principle of limited government.

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    Re: Congressman Caught on Video: I dont care about the Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by OxymoronP View Post
    How do you define the words "Or the people"? What do you think that means?
    Um, maybe as, you know, the People. As in, except for that the national government is enumerated to perform, those other things are reserved to the states...you know, like intrastate commerce. You really believe that the Founders intended for the national government to not only regulate interstate commerce but also intrastate commerce? Funny how the Founders never got around to actually putting that in the Constitution.

    Amending the constitution is pretty diffucult, the tenth Amendment gives the flexibility to the goverment, so that they can best represent the people.
    What? The Founders intended the 10th Amendment as an end-round to the amendment process...


    Likei Health care, instead of creating sweaping amendments that would expand the power of the goverment, the goverment can make adjustments through use of the 10th amendment. And if the change conflicts with another constitutional concept then the Supreme court can strike it down, the Supreme court cannot strike down an amendment.


    Come on...this is absurd. The 10th has always been recognized to reserve to the States or the people power not granted to the national government. If, as you suggest, it was intended to be used as a vehicle to end-run the Amendment process then why have the Amendment process in the first place.

    Please cite any legal text or theory that supports your reasoning here...it is completely unfounded.

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    Re: Congressman Caught on Video: I dont care about the Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by OxymoronP View Post
    I dont believe its erroneos, I believe there is always room for interpetation and your point of view has logic too.
    The difficulty with your interpretation of the 10th Amendment is that it essentially permits to the government to do just about anything it wants. The Constitution was intended to strictly limit the government's reach, and your interpretation runs directly contrary to that very explicit intent.

    If your argument is that the Constitution needs to change to meet the needs of America as it exists today, I'm with you, but not the way you suggest.

    Quote Originally Posted by OxymoronP View Post
    It is my opinion.
    Fair enough.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Congressman Caught on Video: I dont care about the Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative Sword View Post
    No it is not. The Amendment explicitly says that powers not granted to the national granted are reserved to the states or the people.

    Where does the 10th specify that Congress has the ability to expand it's capabilities based on changing needs?

    It simply does not.
    His take on the 10th Amendment depends on his interpretation of the term "the people."

    My interpretation of the term (and, likely, yours as well) characterizes "the people" as essentially being individual citizens, rather than members of a group who are in turn represented by someone else.

    His interpretation of the term characterizes "the people" as being a group who are represented by Congress, which in turn (at least in thoery) carries out the will of (or at least tries to represent the best interests of) "the people." As such, according to his interpretation, that which is granted to "the people" is held in trust by Congress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative Sword View Post
    Where do you get these ideas from. Your interpetation completely neuters the 10th Amendment and renders the concept of limited government meaningless.
    It completely neuters your interpretation of the 10th Amendment, but it goes a very long way towards his apparent belief that the Constitution should be more fluid than it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative Sword View Post
    Sheesh...follow your logic. You are explicitly saying that the national government has unlimited authority to do whatever it wants. This is absurd not only constitutionally, but morally as well.
    No, actually, he did mention previously that we still have the courts to check the power of Congress and the President.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative Sword View Post
    I can see that you prefer to use the Congress to simply impose your preferences on everyone else...nothing else explains such an ignorant and foolish perception of the Constitution and the unerlying principle of limited government.
    Both sides alternate between using their particular interpretations of the Constitution and using federal law to impose their preferences on everyone else. When they want the government to abstain from involvement, they wave the Constitution around. When they want the government to be involved, they use federal law to make it so.

    Both sides do this.

    Not just his side.

    Both sides.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Congressman Caught on Video: I dont care about the Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative Sword View Post
    You really believe that the Founders intended for the national government to not only regulate interstate commerce but also intrastate commerce? Funny how the Founders never got around to actually putting that in the Constitution.
    It seems more like his point is that the Constitution needs to be adjusted to fit the times, rather than adhere to competing interpretations of a 200 year-old abstract ideal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative Sword View Post
    Come on...this is absurd. The 10th has always been recognized to reserve to the States or the people power not granted to the national government.
    Well, apparently not always, because he has a much different interpretation of what that Amendment means.

    I don't agree with it, but he's apparently given it some thought and it is interesting, if nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative Sword View Post
    Please cite any legal text or theory that supports your reasoning here...it is completely unfounded.
    He's already said it's his opinion, rather than established precedent.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Congressman Caught on Video: I dont care about the Constitution

    I guess I'm just slow on the uptake here...what is at all interesting about taking the 10th Amendment and completely flipping it on it's head? His interpretation of the people really being Congress makes no sense...unless you completely ignore the rest of the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and the entire basis underlying the founding of this nation. I just don't see that as interesting...not even in a lets think out of the box kinda way. It's just ignorant.

    BTW - how does his interpretation neuter my interpretation? My interpretation actually rests on founding principles and concepts. His rests on, well, nothing but an overactive imagination that seeks to create out of whole cloth an entirely new meaning for "the people" so he can justify simply imposing his will on others.

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    Re: Congressman Caught on Video: I dont care about the Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative Sword View Post
    I guess I'm just slow on the uptake here...what is at all interesting about taking the 10th Amendment and completely flipping it on it's head?
    It was an idea I hadn't been exposed to before. I tend to find new ideas, even the ones I disagree wholeheartedly with, interesting.

    Have you never had that experience? Come on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative Sword View Post
    His interpretation of the people really being Congress makes no sense...unless you completely ignore the rest of the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and the entire basis underlying the founding of this nation. I just don't see that as interesting...not even in a lets think out of the box kinda way. It's just ignorant.
    Interestingly enough, my layman's understanding of the Constitution doesn't contain anything explicit which contradicts OxymoronP's interpretation head-on.

    Would you care to cite what portions of the Constitution you believe in fact disagree with him?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative Sword View Post
    BTW - how does his interpretation neuter my interpretation?
    I never said it did. I would, however, be interested to see if you can produce passages from the Constitution or Declaration which directly contradict him.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Congressman Caught on Video: I dont care about the Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    This more gottcha efforts that doesn't seek to understand but to make something into something it isn't.
    Bingo. Could the effort to get this guy to feed the IDIOT behind the camera be any more transparent?

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    Re: Congressman Caught on Video: I dont care about the Constitution

    Dan, you are aware that the founders were establishing a model of limited government, right? That first principle is a theme throughout all of the founding documents.

    I have no obligation to prove a negative here. Rather, the poster posting such an interpretation does have an obligation to cite relevant passages of any founding document that would lead a reader to consider that "the people" is just a synonym for Congress despite the fact that the founders were very clear about limiting the role of the fed govt.

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