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55% Favor Repeal of Health Care Bill

But if as you admit, voters are ignorant, then democracy in any form is a stupid idea.

How did you reach that conclusion? Voters are ignorant about this subject. That does not logically conclude voters are ignorant entirely on all subjects everywhere. You jumped the gun on that one without any logical path to follow.

Whether you like it or not, the fact that a majority opposes the bill will have future consequences. So ignoring it because you think people are stupid doesn't make much sense.

Sure it will. But we also must realize that a poll where the majority are against something they don't understand is not exactly a good reference as to whether the bill is bad or good.

I made the reference to thermal depolymerization because it shows people discuss things they have no understanding of. Navy cannot point out the difference between the bill and a milk cow. Does that mean the bill should be repealed?

None of which changes the fact that you were wrong to compare it to auto insurance, which was my point.

Come again? How so?
 
Hey Chief, did you tell me a short while back that military retiree's had "Tricare?" Did that take the place of Champus? Is Tricare available to the public on the open market?

How does it work these days? Can you pick your own insurance provider and doctors, and whatnot, and the government participates in all or part of the tab?

Or is Tricare a government (read:socialist) ran insurance? What's Tricare all about? What are the insurance options of a retiree?

If I'm being too nosey, I apologize.

In case he doesn't answer....
I have tricare prime, costs an extra $500 per year or so for me and the wife.
Under 65, we go to Luke AFB for routine stuff, and they refer us if a specialist is needed. They are very willing to use civilian specialists, as opposed to HMO type companies who try their best to keep you away from specialists..
Regular Tricare is free for military retirees.
Veterans Administration medical is for non-retirees, but retirees can use VA hospitals. There are copays involved in VA and Tricare, but they are low.
Next year, I turn 65, and will have Medicare, with Tricare for Life covering Part B.
Military Retirees don't need part C or whatever to cover drug costs, as most drugs are free from the military hospitals, or you can pay a very few bucks to have them mailed to your house if you have a long term need for medications. My wife gets her cholesterol meds mailed to her, 90 day supply at a time, for $3.
My PD med, Azilect, is much more expensive in the civiliam market (one pill a day, at $7 per pill), but I pay $9 for a 3 month supply.
Retirees get good care, at very minimal costs.
 

bam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even worse, why should my premiums and taxes be taken, without my approval or even knowledge and used for such purposes?

My premiums are SUPPOSE to be pooled in my appropriate risk pool. Not taken out and used to pay for the uninsured. My total available funds drop.
 
In case he doesn't answer....
I have tricare prime, costs an extra $500 per year or so for me and the wife.
Under 65, we go to Luke AFB for routine stuff, and they refer us if a specialist is needed. They are very willing to use civilian specialists, as opposed to HMO type companies who try their best to keep you away from specialists..
Regular Tricare is free for military retirees.
Veterans Administration medical is for non-retirees, but retirees can use VA hospitals. There are copays involved in VA and Tricare, but they are low.
Next year, I turn 65, and will have Medicare, with Tricare for Life covering Part B.
Military Retirees don't need part C or whatever to cover drug costs, as most drugs are free from the military hospitals, or you can pay a very few bucks to have them mailed to your house if you have a long term need for medications. My wife gets her cholesterol meds mailed to her, 90 day supply at a time, for $3.
My PD med, Azilect, is much more expensive in the civiliam market (one pill a day, at $7 per pill), but I pay $9 for a 3 month supply.
Retirees get good care, at very minimal costs.

All due respect Utah, because our military retiree's deserve the best we have to offer, but isn't that, pretty much, by definition, a brand of the "socialist" insurance my esteemed collegue rails against? Is he saying to me that he enjoys, or despises, his own "socialist" health care?

The message seems rather mixed to me. Please clarify.
 
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How did you reach that conclusion? Voters are ignorant about this subject. That does not logically conclude voters are ignorant entirely on all subjects everywhere. You jumped the gun on that one without any logical path to follow.

How is this issue different from every other? Don't just say "it's complex," because most issues are complex.

Sure it will. But we also must realize that a poll where the majority are against something they don't understand is not exactly a good reference as to whether the bill is bad or good.

Did anyone say that it is?

I made the reference to thermal depolymerization because it shows people discuss things they have no understanding of. Navy cannot point out the difference between the bill and a milk cow. Does that mean the bill should be repealed?

And is thermal depolymerization a huge political issue that will affect many people's lives? Is it subject to the democratic process? If so, then public opinion of it would matter.

Come again? How so?

Because nobody is forced to buy a car. Remember when I said that?
 
How is this issue different from every other? Don't just say "it's complex," because most issues are complex.

Tell me, does the perception of the president's behavior on the economy exceed several thousand pages? :2wave:

Asking voters if they think the country is on the right path is not the same as asking them if a 1,000+ page bill should be repealed.

Did anyone say that it is?

No, but that's still my point.

And is thermal depolymerization a huge political issue that will affect many people's lives? Is it subject to the democratic process? If so, then public opinion of it would matter.

If it takes off, it could very well solve our liquid fuel, food waste, radioactive waste and chemical/biological weapon storage issues all in one. I take it you've never heard of it eh?

Because nobody is forced to buy a car. Remember when I said that?

Except that you ignore my response to that.
 
Tell me, does the perception of the president's behavior on the economy exceed several thousand pages? :2wave:

Asking voters if they think the country is on the right path is not the same as asking them if a 1,000+ page bill should be repealed.

You're right, asking if they think the country is on the right path is a meaningless question, whereas asking them if they think a bill that their elected representatives have passed and that will hugely impact their personal lives should be repealed is clear-cut and an extremely important statistic.

No, but that's still my point.

Then your point is a worthless straw man.

If it takes off, it could very well solve our liquid fuel, food waste, radioactive waste and chemical/biological weapon storage issues all in one. I take it you've never heard of it eh?

Then if it takes off, people's opinions of it will matter. And if it takes off, they will form opinions of it.

Except that you ignore my response to that.

Except you ignore the fact that your response to that is irrelevant. You can defend mandated health insurance all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that when it was pointed out to you that nobody had ever been forced to buy something before, you used car insurance to refute that point. I only pointed out that your rebuttal doesn't work, and you haven't argued against that.
 
You're right, asking if they think the country is on the right path is a meaningless question, whereas asking them if they think a bill that their elected representatives have passed and that will hugely impact their personal lives should be repealed is clear-cut and an extremely important statistic.

Sometimes I wonder if you post high. Asking people about a subject matter in which they do not have a proper understanding of is kind silly from the perspective if the subject is to be removed.

Then your point is a worthless straw man.

Only to you.

Then if it takes off, people's opinions of it will matter. And if it takes off, they will form opinions of it.

So opinions that hold no facts are to be used in repealing or legislating bills?

Except you ignore the fact that your response to that is irrelevant. You can defend mandated health insurance all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that when it was pointed out to you that nobody had ever been forced to buy something before, you used car insurance to refute that point. I only pointed out that your rebuttal doesn't work, and you haven't argued against that.

Fine, no one had to be forced to buy something before. That doesn't change the underlying reason for doing it. Which I haven't gotten any response to in either threat aside from your asinine post which I labeled "in the Roman times..."

I do find it amusing watching Conservatives support free riding.
 
Sometimes I wonder if you post high. Asking people about a subject matter in which they do not have a proper understanding of is kind silly from the perspective if the subject is to be removed.

No, in a democracy, the will of the people matters. Period. Whether or not you're a smug elitist who thinks that people are too ignorant to have an opinion is irrelevant in regards to an issue that is subject to the democratic process. Now, if you hate democracy, that's another story.


Only to you.

No, to everyone. You refuted an argument that nobody made (and you admitted that nobody made it). That's called a straw man argument.


So opinions that hold no facts are to be used in repealing or legislating bills?

YES. I'm glad you finally caught on. It's called "democracy".

Fine, no one had to be forced to buy something before.

Thank you.
 
Hey Chief, did you tell me a short while back that military retiree's had "Tricare?" Did that take the place of Champus? Is Tricare available to the public on the open market?

How does it work these days? Can you pick your own insurance provider and doctors, and whatnot, and the government participates in all or part of the tab?

Or is Tricare a government (read:socialist) ran insurance? What's Tricare all about? What are the insurance options of a retiree?

If I'm being too nosey, I apologize.

Tricare is the military's health insurance; and they have a couple of different policy options. there is a retirement option, Tricare for Life or something like that; but as Tricares' reimbursement rates are sub-par, you are basically accepting slightly-worse-than-medicare-reimbursement for life; which means it's going to be tough to find providers.
 
Tricare is the military's health insurance; and they have a couple of different policy options. there is a retirement option, Tricare for Life or something like that; but as Tricares' reimbursement rates are sub-par, you are basically accepting slightly-worse-than-medicare-reimbursement for life; which means it's going to be tough to find providers.

Thanks CP. :2wave:

I see even civillian retirees takin' it hard with their insurance burdens. Wouldn't it be great if Joe the Plumber could be guaranteed quality health care, for life, after working hard and honest his whole working life, like our vets and retirees deserve after putting in, say, only 20 years or so? But Joe only worked at Acme Plbg. for 10 years before they went under. Then he worked for Crown Plumbers, for 5 before the franchise went kaput. He's been doing well on his own for 10 years, but after showing up at work everyday at 6:00 am, for 25 years, he ain't got ****. In fact, he's probably worried if they will even insure him at all since his blood pressure went up.

I wonder what the premiums on a similar Tricare plan would cost the civillian public? Sounds smart to me that the govt., if they REALLY wanted to change health care, would set up it's own insurance styled entity and offer quality health care, and do it not for profit but also not for loss. Of course, that would make the private insurance companies to have to compete. I can already see one side of the aisle not liking that idea.




<edit> I was just informed that Joe was in the union those 25 years and even though he worked for several different jobs, the union handled his insurance. So, false alarm. Joe's set. Don't worry about Joe.


Hmmmmm............ <there has to be an idea in there somewhere?>
 
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All due respect Utah, because our military retiree's deserve the best we have to offer, but isn't that, pretty much, by definition, a brand of the "socialist" insurance my esteemed collegue rails against? Is he saying to me that he enjoys, or despises, his own "socialist" health care?

The message seems rather mixed to me. Please clarify.
Let's call it socialism for those who have EARNED it....:lol:
Just being born here is entitlement enough for some people. God forbid that we should ask them to do something for their country for a few years...

Your esteemed colleage feels that he earned his, and it probably irritates him that others will get it for nothing....and if that is what he thinks, I can agree somewhat. Only those who are truly helpless should get free help. We should have the freedom to die on the sidewalk outside an emergency room if we refuse to buy insurance when we can actually afford it. Of the currently uninsured, I bet a majority of them CAN afford to buy the insurance, but choose not to. Why pay for something they might NEED, when it is so much more fun to spend their money on things they WANT.
 
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Tricare is the military's health insurance; and they have a couple of different policy options. there is a retirement option, Tricare for Life or something like that; but as Tricares' reimbursement rates are sub-par, you are basically accepting slightly-worse-than-medicare-reimbursement for life; which means it's going to be tough to find providers.

Just because doctors choose to accept lower reimbursement rates doesn't mean they are providing lower quality care.
 
Romney is a RINO...He will be whatever you want him to be to get elected......

Real Conservatives are against anything you can't pay for.........

If by RINO you mean reasonable Republican....I agree. Romney is one of the few Republican candidates that I would consider voting for. In fact, he may be the only one.
 
Did you even read that post you quoted?

Tell me navy, why should I be FORCED to pay for the costs of others who refuse to cover those costs they incur?

You shouldn't.......

The people that refuse to buy health insurance better have the money to pay for it if they need it but it is unconstitutional to force them to pay for it and fine them if they don't.........

This is the USA not the USSR.
 
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If by RINO you mean reasonable Republican....I agree. Romney is one of the few Republican candidates that I would consider voting for. In fact, he may be the only one.

How is that responsibility working out for the residents of Massachusetts?
 
You shouldn't.......

The people that refuse to buy health insurance better have the money to pay for it if they need it but it is unconstitutional to force them to pay for it and fine them if they don't.........

This is the USA not the USSR.

You sure about that?

We're now a nation that coerces citizens to purchase a private good/service as a condition of citizenship.

Via the threat of fines, citizens are compelled to work to support the behavior and activities of others...this Obamacare is a logical extension of that.
 
I see even civillian retirees takin' it hard with their insurance burdens. Wouldn't it be great if Joe the Plumber could be guaranteed quality health care, for life, after working hard and honest his whole working life, like our vets and retirees deserve after putting in, say, only 20 years or so? But Joe only worked at Acme Plbg. for 10 years before they went under. Then he worked for Crown Plumbers, for 5 before the franchise went kaput. He's been doing well on his own for 10 years, but after showing up at work everyday at 6:00 am, for 25 years, he ain't got ****. In fact, he's probably worried if they will even insure him at all since his blood pressure went up.

i agree; Americans are switching jobs for a variety of reasons all the time in today's fluid economy.

which is why health insurance should be personally owned. when you look at it, there is no better reason for us to have our employer purchase health insurance for us than there would be for us to have our job give us auto insurance.

I wonder what the premiums on a similar Tricare plan would cost the civillian public?

lots; Tricare is heavily subsidized for the military that buy it. Taxpayers would either have to pay heavy premiums, or heavy taxes.

Sounds smart to me that the govt., if they REALLY wanted to change health care, would set up it's own insurance styled entity and offer quality health care, and do it not for profit but also not for loss.

well, 1. government programs run at a loss all the time and 2. government programs to include Tricare aren't exactly known for providing "quality" service. Tricare has been a pain in the neck; it took me two years to convince those people that the woman on my marriage certificate who was also listed as the mother of my son was - in fact - my 'wife'. Since her dad was retired military, she had been on his account as a secondary... and everyone knows that it is impossible to be both a daughter and a wife.... and she's already in the system as a daughter..... suffice to say i'm still trying to clean up that mess; as i type on my desk sits a bill for hundreds of dollars that showed up for medical care provided years ago that has been rejected by Tricare "because the policy has expired". the policy which expired being her being under her father...... which was months before she got this charge, which was months after she married me..... anywho, the bill contains the usual 'the lateness of your payment means that if you don't cough up these hundreds of dollars immediately you will be referred to collection agencies etc' because apparently Tricare took 18 months to actually get back to the provider and refuse to pay. hooray government bureacracy. nor is that all. :p they accused me of fraud once and threatned me over the phone with jail time because when my son was born the hospital listed him as simply "Baby (my last name)", whereas i was claiming benefits for a "Ryan (my last name)", which was clearly a different child, and what had happened to my son named "baby", etc. and so forth. i could go on and on about these idiots, but suffice to say imagine if the congressman who thinks guam is about to tip over were in charge of designing your health insurance system, which was then staffed by DMV employees working under TSA management.
 
You sure about that?

We're now a nation that coerces citizens to purchase a private good/service as a condition of citizenship.

Via the threat of fines, citizens are compelled to work to support the behavior and activities of others...this Obamacare is a logical extension of that.

Hey listen your preaching to the choir but 53%of the American voters voted for him for president, I was not one of them....Hopefully they have woke up and won't vote for this far out left wing mental midget again.......
 
You sure about that?

We're now a nation that coerces citizens to purchase a private good/service as a condition of citizenship.

Via the threat of fines, citizens are compelled to work to support the behavior and activities of others...this Obamacare is a logical extension of that.

By the way, welcome to DP....We can always use another Conservative voice to fight far out left wing liberalism........:cheers:
 
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