Marine officer: Gays, straights shouldn't share housing

roguenuke · Mar 31, 2010

Politics101 said:
It's not about avoiding your fellow soldiers, it's about keeping it professional and strictly on the mission. If the mission was to discover each everyone one of your fellow soldiers sexuality, then I guess it would make sense. Also - I'd rather not know and not feel uncomfortable to the point where I'd actually avoid certain situations with someone.

If I'm showering with a gay person, I'd rather not know they were gay and not know that there's a chance they are attracted to me. If you're not gay, just imagine yourself showering with someone you know is gay and quite possibly attracted to your hard-bodied, military physique. If the gay man even looked in your direction, the level of awkwardness would skyrocket. Why would anyone, including gay men, want those who they are around to feel uncomfortable in a given situation?

I get the feeling that the feeling of uncomfortableness I would have in the above scenario would be exactly the same thing if men and women in the military were forced to shower and sleep together. In terms of sexual preference, it's exactly the same thing.

You would be wrong. I have showered (well relatively, since most military showers are single stalls, with a curtain or door, not open-bay) with women that I knew were gay. It didn't bother me at all, whether they actually found me attractive or not, because I was not attracted to them. I would feel uncomfortable showering with most guys, not because they might be lusting after me, but rather because the ones that I would be attracted to might not find me attractive naked. That is the main reason that I would be uncomfortable showering in front of most guys. I knew a lot of girls who felt this way.

Well that, and it would be really embarrassing to have to shower/get naked in front of guys while on your period, attraction or not. Guys have a lot bigger problem with feminine products, even when they're unused, and pretty much anything else to do with a woman's period, than most women.

Now, there are those weird guys that would make me uncomfortable to get naked in front of, those ones who seem like they might try something if given the opportunity, but I'd just avoid getting naked in front of them as much as possible. And if it was necessary, I'd make sure there was someone else I could trust in there, or at least close by, also.

Also, you are assuming that the gay guys would tell everyone their sexuality. This is most likely just not going to happen. Most of the homosexuals will still keep their sexuality private. The biggest thing that repealing DADT and changing the laws that keep gays from serving openly will do is take away the fear that homosexuals have now that if their sexuality is found out that they can be discharged for it.

jallman · Mar 31, 2010

Redress said:
Since we are talking about gays and now transvestites, it reminds me of a pre-op tranny I knew when I was 19 who went by the name Ricky(yes, I did have an odd life when I was younger). His comment was something like this "hun, ain't no strait guy around knows how to please me".

It's so friggin ridiculous that straight men think that we care about their bits and pieces for 5 minutes of shower time. At 5AM, all I care about is how hot the water is gonna be and rinsing the sleep away. After working all day, all I care about is washing the day away and getting to bed.

How much do they really think we are on about the same equipment we have in that situation. FFS, this is how we spend our Saturday nights:

A 5 minute shower ain't gonna top that enough to get me excited about it.

This is how we spend our happy hours:

A 5 minute shower ain't gonna top our typical afternoon. And all this gay ass talk about how the poor little straight boy is getting eye ****ed because of his "hard military physique" is bull****. You take a crowd of gay men and a crowd of marines, and I can guarantee you there will be a lower % body fat and a higher muscle mass among the homos than there will be among any group of straight men from any demographic.

Hatuey · Mar 31, 2010

jallman said:
It's so friggin ridiculous that straight men think that we care about their bits and pieces for 5 minutes of shower time. At 5AM, all I care about is how hot the water is gonna be and rinsing the sleep away. After working all day, all I care about is washing the day away and getting to bed.

How much do they really think we are on about the same equipment we have in that situation. FFS, this is how we spend our Saturday nights:

A 5 minute shower ain't gonna top that enough to get me excited about it.

This is how we spend our happy hours:

A 5 minute shower ain't gonna top our typical afternoon. And all this gay ass talk about how the poor little straight boy is getting eye ****ed because of his "hard military physique" is bull****. You take a crowd of gay men and a crowd of marines, and I can guarantee you there will be a lower % body fat and a higher muscle mass among the homos than there will be among any group of straight men from any demographic.

It is kind of ironic isn't it? How many straight guys think that they are in such great shape that all it takes for them to get looks is to be in a shower naked? I've gotten MORE looks from men AND women when I'm well dressed than I've ever gotten going to a gym or at a beach.

jallman · Mar 31, 2010

Hatuey said:
It is kind of ironic isn't it? How many straight guys think that they are in such great shape that all it takes for them to get looks is to be in a shower naked? I've gotten MORE looks from men AND women when I'm well dressed than I've ever gotten going to a gym or at a beach.

What's really funny to me is how straight guys think they are gonna get looks from gay guys to start with. Go into a gay club and then go into a straight club...then you tell me where the attractive guys are.:lol:

Hatuey · Mar 31, 2010

jallman said:
What's really funny to me is how straight guys think they are gonna get looks from gay guys to start with. Go into a gay club and then go into a straight club...then you tell me where the attractive guys are.:lol:

The problem in this entire debate is how sexually illiterate the people debating against gay civil rights are. You have the very SAME people who say we shouldn't teach our kids about STIs, condom use and healthy sex in schools, telling us what sexuality is. The same people who think feminism is about oppressing men are debating sexuality. How in the damn hell is it this debate has lasted so long? We are debating a group of people with a limited knowledge of sexuality on a subject which doesn't require religious knowledge, military knowledge or personal experience. It requires some ****ing concept of what sexuality actually is.

jallman · Mar 31, 2010

Hatuey said:
The problem in this entire debate is how sexually illiterate the people debating against gay civil rights are. You have the very SAME people who say we shouldn't teach our kids about STIs, condom use and healthy sex in schools, telling us what sexuality is. The same people who think feminism is about oppressing men are debating sexuality. How in the damn hell is it this debate has lasted so long? We are debating a group of people with a limited knowledge of sexuality on a subject which doesn't require religious knowledge, military knowledge or personal experience. It requires some ****ing concept of what sexuality actually is.

Oh yes, I know. But you're talking about a stubborn lot that can't think past the idea that "teh gays are gonna eye **** me again cuz I'm so luscious".

I mean, for Christ's sake, the one was talking about how they will lose their minds around his, and I quote, "hard, military physique". WTF?

Sounds like "teh gay" might be contagious after all.:doh

Hatuey · Mar 31, 2010

jallman said:
Oh yes, I know. But you're talking about a stubborn lot that can't think past the idea that "teh gays are gonna eye **** me again cuz I'm so luscious".

I mean, for Christ's sake, the one was talking about how they will lose their minds around his, and I quote, "hard, military physique". WTF?

Sounds like "teh gay" might be contagious after all.:doh

I'm just surprised nobody has argued that if we let gays serve openly then we'll have to leg pigs and goats serve too.

Navy Pride · Mar 31, 2010

roguenuke said:
First, you just stereotyped gays with your reference to men who have feminine traits. A man who has feminine traits is not necessarily gay, that is a stereotype. In fact, many male cross-dressers are actually heterosexual. And not all gay guys have feminine traits either. One of the guys I mentioned earlier was somewhat feminine, although it wasn't obvious to me at first, but as for the other guy, most people had no clue he was attracted to guys at all (he was bisexual).

Also, you said just a few post back that you didn't know a single gay guy put out that wasn't due to him making unwanted sexual advances. Guess what? You just admitted to knowing two. A mutual relationship is not an unwanted sexual advance.[/QUOTE]

I didn't make that stereotype up...Its been there for a thousand years...I am sure you have heard it to......Your preaching to the choir but I am glad you brought up cross dressers and transvestites to......How are they going to play in DADT? Will they dress as men or women? What heads will they use...........just many more problems if God forbid DADT goes away......

On the bolded part that is not true...Of course there are people getting out for other reasons and Consenting adults having gay sex is against the law to......

Hatuey · Mar 31, 2010

I didn't make that stereotype up...Its been there for a thousand years...I am sure you have heard it to......Your preaching to the choir but I am glad you brought up cross dressers and transvestites to......How are they going to play in DADT? Will they dress as men or women? What heads will they use...........just many more problems if God forbid DADT goes away......

This is idiotic. If you serve in the military there is a dress code which applies to everyone. If you do not abide by it, you get removed from the military regardless of your sexuality. DADT is a discriminatory practice which applies to gays ONLY. Your argument is a complete fallacy.

Navy Pride · Mar 31, 2010

Hatuey said:
This is idiotic. If you serve in the military there is a dress code which applies to everyone. If you do not abide by it, you get removed from the military regardless of your sexuality. DADT is a discriminatory practice which applies to gays ONLY. Your argument is a complete fallacy.

It is obvious again that you have never served and you are ignorant on the subject or you would not say that.......When your report for work in the morning you wear civilian clothes and then change into your work clothes..Same thing when you go home at night.......

How will that work with a cross dresser? What heads will they use? If one is having a sex change how is that handled?

rathi · Mar 31, 2010

I'm just surprised nobody has argued that if we let gays serve openly then we'll have to leg pigs and goats serve too.

Well, we have already let dogs, horses, dolphins and camels serve in the military, so it wouldn't really be much of a stretch.

roguenuke · Mar 31, 2010

Navy Pride said:
roguenuke said:

First, you just stereotyped gays with your reference to men who have feminine traits. A man who has feminine traits is not necessarily gay, that is a stereotype. In fact, many male cross-dressers are actually heterosexual. And not all gay guys have feminine traits either. One of the guys I mentioned earlier was somewhat feminine, although it wasn't obvious to me at first, but as for the other guy, most people had no clue he was attracted to guys at all (he was bisexual).

Also, you said just a few post back that you didn't know a single gay guy put out that wasn't due to him making unwanted sexual advances. Guess what? You just admitted to knowing two. A mutual relationship is not an unwanted sexual advance.[/QUOTE]

I didn't make that stereotype up...Its been there for a thousand years...I am sure you have heard it to......Your preaching to the choir but I am glad you brought up cross dressers and transvestites to......How are they going to play in DADT? Will they dress as men or women? What heads will they use...........just many more problems if God forbid DADT goes away......

On the bolded part that is not true...Of course there are people getting out for other reasons and Consenting adults having gay sex is against the law to......

Click to expand...

Consenting adults having gay sex is against the UCMJ, not the actual law. For gays to truly serve openly, the UCMJ will have to be changed along with repealing DADT.

I've already answered this question. If there is really a demand out there by cross-dressers to be able to wear the uniform of the opposite sex, then that will have to be addressed separately, because as I said before, it is a completely separate issue. Especially since many, if not most, cross-dressers are actually heterosexual men.

roguenuke · Mar 31, 2010

Navy Pride said:
It is obvious again that you have never served and you are ignorant on the subject or you would not say that.......When your report for work in the morning you wear civilian clothes and then change into your work clothes..Same thing when you go home at night.......

How will that work with a cross dresser? What heads will they use? If one is having a sex change how is that handled?

Again, it is a completely different issue than homosexuality. But if there comes a demand by cross-dressers to be able to wear the clothes they are most comfortable in, then that should be left up to the military to decide what is appropriate. The military, however, has some pretty strict dress codes for its service members, that are already at least a little discriminatory (thinking jewelry and hair differences for men and women), so I don't see much headway for this in the near future.

roguenuke · Mar 31, 2010

jallman said:
It's so friggin ridiculous that straight men think that we care about their bits and pieces for 5 minutes of shower time. At 5AM, all I care about is how hot the water is gonna be and rinsing the sleep away. After working all day, all I care about is washing the day away and getting to bed.

How much do they really think we are on about the same equipment we have in that situation. FFS, this is how we spend our Saturday nights:

A 5 minute shower ain't gonna top that enough to get me excited about it.

This is how we spend our happy hours:

A 5 minute shower ain't gonna top our typical afternoon. And all this gay ass talk about how the poor little straight boy is getting eye ****ed because of his "hard military physique" is bull****. You take a crowd of gay men and a crowd of marines, and I can guarantee you there will be a lower % body fat and a higher muscle mass among the homos than there will be among any group of straight men from any demographic.

BTW, jallman, if you would like to continue to put some of these pictures up, I won't complain at all. :mrgreen: Those guys on that float are so hot. I don't care if they're gay, they are so nice to look at.

Navy Pride · Mar 31, 2010

roguenuke said:
Again, it is a completely different issue than homosexuality. But if there comes a demand by cross-dressers to be able to wear the clothes they are most comfortable in, then that should be left up to the military to decide what is appropriate. The military, however, has some pretty strict dress codes for its service members, that are already at least a little discriminatory (thinking jewelry and hair differences for men and women), so I don't see much headway for this in the near future.

With all respect I have never seen someone that wants to make such radical changes in our military especiaslly with 2 wars going on.....You must have heard of unit cohesion and company morale but you act like its not even a factor......

misterman · Mar 31, 2010

Navy Pride said:
It is obvious again that you have never served and you are ignorant on the subject or you would not say that.......When your report for work in the morning you wear civilian clothes and then change into your work clothes..Same thing when you go home at night.......

Right. So it won't matter at work. It is a non-issue. Who cares how someone dresses at home?

KOV03 · Mar 31, 2010

roguenuke said:
Wearing a military uniform is about professionalism, so even if there were cross-dressers that were allowed to cross-dress, they would still be required to wear the uniform of the opposite sex and obey the regulations dealing with wearing the uniform of the opposite sex.

:2wave:

thank you I wanted to be sure that we understood allowing openly gay in the military. Next we must allow for cross-dressers.

To me military is for one thing to kill people and break things and nothing else.
Not people's agendas or issues.

roguenuke · Mar 31, 2010

Navy Pride said:
With all respect I have never seen someone that wants to make such radical changes in our military especiaslly with 2 wars going on.....You must have heard of unit cohesion and company morale but you act like its not even a factor......

Look, I actually didn't bring up cross-dressing, some other poster did. I answered him. I don't care if someone wants to be a cross-dresser, but I do understand that it is not as accepted by nearly as many people as homosexuality and is not considered professional. I have yet to argue that crossdressers should be allowed to wear whatever they want. I have continued to say that if it is a big deal to cross-dressers, they should bring it up on their own. I don't think it is a huge deal to them though, especially since most crossdressers can still do so in private. In fact, I've never heard of someone actually getting discharged for just being a cross-dresser, so it is probably not such a big deal to them as long as they aren't discharged for something they do in their off-time, that must be being kept quiet enough that no one really even notices them. Although, from the websites I've browsed, there seems to be a lot more closet cross-dressers in the military than one might think. And I'd stand behind them if the military was discharging them for just being cross-dressers in their own time.

Redress · Mar 31, 2010

Navy Pride said:
It is obvious again that you have never served and you are ignorant on the subject or you would not say that.......When your report for work in the morning you wear civilian clothes and then change into your work clothes..Same thing when you go home at night.......

How will that work with a cross dresser? What heads will they use? If one is having a sex change how is that handled?

I think the rule has changed since I was in, but at the time, it was against the rules for guys to wear earrings on base. When I first joined, they could not even technically have their ears pierced. Further, there are dress codes even when in civilian clothes. Your complaint is simply not valid.

Navy Pride · Mar 31, 2010

misterman said:
Right. So it won't matter at work. It is a non-issue. Who cares how someone dresses at home?

Do you have a reading comprehension? What does a crossdresser wear to work.......what bathrooms does he/she use.............

Navy Pride · Mar 31, 2010

Redress said:
I think the rule has changed since I was in, but at the time, it was against the rules for guys to wear earrings on base. When I first joined, they could not even technically have their ears pierced. Further, there are dress codes even when in civilian clothes. Your complaint is simply not valid.

So a crossdresser can wear female clothes to work in your navy?

Navy Pride · Mar 31, 2010

roguenuke said:
Look, I actually didn't bring up cross-dressing, some other poster did. I answered him. I don't care if someone wants to be a cross-dresser, but I do understand that it is not as accepted by nearly as many people as homosexuality and is not considered professional. I have yet to argue that crossdressers should be allowed to wear whatever they want. I have continued to say that if it is a big deal to cross-dressers, they should bring it up on their own. I don't think it is a huge deal to them though, especially since most crossdressers can still do so in private. In fact, I've never heard of someone actually getting discharged for just being a cross-dresser, so it is probably not such a big deal to them as long as they aren't discharged for something they do in their off-time, that must be being kept quiet enough that no one really even notices them. Although, from the websites I've browsed, there seems to be a lot more closet cross-dressers in the military than one might think. And I'd stand behind them if the military was discharging them for just being cross-dressers in their own time.

If you drop DADT these situations are going to come up whether you like it or not.........Its called pushing the envelope............

misterman · Mar 31, 2010

KOV03 said:
thank you I wanted to be sure that we understood allowing openly gay in the military. Next we must allow for cross-dressers.

Straw man and slippery slope fallacies in the same response. Well done.

misterman · Mar 31, 2010

Navy Pride said:
If you drop DADT these situations are going to come up whether you like it or not.........Its called pushing the envelope............

Slippery slope is a logical fallacy.

Navy Pride · Mar 31, 2010

misterman said:
Straw man and slippery slope fallacies in the same response. Well done.

you drop DADT these situations are going to come up whether you like it or not.........Its called pushing the envelope............
__________________You can call anything a slippery slope..........

Marine officer: Gays, straights shouldn't share housing

roguenuke

jallman

Hatuey

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