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New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

Z3n said:
What the hell are you talking about? Obviously you havent been in a high position in the oil industry otherwise you'd know the government subsidizies oil! rofl

Subsidizing Big Oil (1995) | Union of Concerned Scientists
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Please stop embarrassing yourself and get the facts, I was in upper management in the oil business and I guarantee you that you don't know what you are talking about. That article relates to just about any industry but does it really matter to people like you? What is a subsidy, it is allowing companies to keep more of their own money or are you like most anti business people who believe it is the government's money first? Where it is income taxes, tax credits or anything else, the money comes from the consumer first. I further suggest you find out the royalties oil companies pay to the govt in this country, both state and Federal. You shouldn't be talking about things you do not understand.

Check out the Federal, State, and local taxes that are on gasoline in this country vs. Europe and you will find out why the price there is more than double here.
 
Conservative said:
TX has a part time legislature, no state income tax, economic growth, rising employment, and had a budget surplus until this recession.
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Z3n said:
And they did it without any government subsidies for agriculture or oil or housing or schooling etc :2razz:
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I'm sure if my state were an oil rich state like TX or AK and recieved billions in oil subsidies we wouldn't have an income tax either. For more details into big oil subsidies, read here.
 
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nevermind, weird link problem
 
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Objective Voice said:
I'm sure if my state were an oil rich state like TX or AK and recieved billions in oil subsidies we wouldn't have an income tax either. For more details into big oil subsidies, read here.
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There is plenty of oil off the coasts of this country that the states refuse to touch. This is another issue you do not understand yet try to be an expert on. Taxes, royalties, dry holes consume a lot of oil company profits but that escapes those who do not understand business. You seem to fit into that category.

For some reason profits are a dirty word in the liberal language but govt. spending 3.8 trillion dollars isn't. No wonder liberals are called loons.
 
winston53660 said:
Take a look at our property taxes, sales taxes, sin taxes, etc.
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You control where you live, what you buy, and the sins that you participate in but I forgot that is someone else's fault, :rofl
 
Conservative said:
There is plenty of oil off the coasts of this country that the states refuse to touch. This is another issue you do not understand yet try to be an expert on. Taxes, royalties, dry holes consume a lot of oil company profits but that escapes those who do not understand business. You seem to fit into that category.

For some reason profits are a dirty word in the liberal language but govt. spending 3.8 trillion dollars isn't. No wonder liberals are called loons.
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[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_argument]Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

We aren't talking profits. We are talking subsidies
 
Z3n said:
Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We aren't talking profits. We are talking subsidies
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What is a subsidy? Answer the question and why does it bother you that companies keep more of what they make? Do you realize that oil companies pay royalties on the product they pull out of the ground, pay state, federal, and local taxes as do all the employees they hire. Profit isn't a bad word and when you point out lost tax revenue you are giving approval on all that govt. spending while ignoring the taxes that are collected from employees and property of those oil companies.

It really is hard dealing with people who haven't a clue how business works and view profits as bad but taxes good.
 
Conservative said:
There is plenty of oil off the coasts of this country that the states refuse to touch. This is another issue you do not understand yet try to be an expert on. Taxes, royalties, dry holes consume a lot of oil company profits but that escapes those who do not understand business. You seem to fit into that category.

For some reason profits are a dirty word in the liberal language but govt. spending 3.8 trillion dollars isn't. No wonder liberals are called loons.
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Again, why do you assume that just because I disagree with you on certain points that automatically makes me a liberal? You seem to take this same point of view with anyone who doesn't share your point of view. That's very narrow-minded.

And as I've said time and time again, I have no problem whatsoever with anyone in this country making money...tons of it if they are fortunate enough to be so blessed. My problem comes with people who think like you do who see no place in government to render aid to its citizens under ANY circumstances. I just don't understand how people can be so coarse.
 
Conservative said:
What is a subsidy?
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Subsidy definition

A benefit given by the government to groups or individuals usually in the form of a cash payment or tax reduction. The subsidy is usually given to remove some type of burden and is often considered to be in the interest of the public.

Politics play an important part in subsidization. In general, the left is more in favor of having subsidized industries, while the right feels that industry should stand on its own without public funds.
 
Objective Voice said:
Again, why do you assume that just because I disagree with you on certain points that automatically makes me a liberal? You seem to take this same point of view with anyone who doesn't share your point of view. That's very narrow-minded.

And as I've said time and time again, I have no problem whatsoever with anyone in this country making money...tons of it if they are fortunate enough to be so blessed. My problem comes with people who think like you do who see no place in government to render aid to its citizens under ANY circumstances. I just don't understand how people can be so coarse.
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Where did I say that the govt. has no place in rendering aid to its citizens? What you don't understand is we have 50 independent states that are closer to the problem than the bureaucrats in D.C. What does a bureaucrat in D.C. know about the problems in your area?

I am still waiting for you to explain to me why it is the Federal Govt. responsibility to provide health care in state and local communities?
 
Objective Voice said:
Subsidy definition

A benefit given by the government to groups or individuals usually in the form of a cash payment or tax reduction. The subsidy is usually given to remove some type of burden and is often considered to be in the interest of the public.

Politics play an important part in subsidization. In general, the left is more in favor of having subsidized industries, while the right feels that industry should stand on its own without public funds.
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By definition a tax reduction comes off the tax liability of a company after it has earned the money. That is what oil companies get but they pay back those taxes in multiples by the employee taxes and the property taxes on what they own in a community along with the royalties paid. Any subsidy to an oil company is in tax reductions and I have no problem with tax reductions as the govt. just wastes money.
 
Conservative said:
By definition a tax reduction comes off the tax liability of a company after it has earned the money. That is what oil companies get but they pay back those taxes in multiples by the employee taxes and the property taxes on what they own in a community along with the royalties paid. Any subsidy to an oil company is in tax reductions and I have no problem with tax reductions as the govt. just wastes money.
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Cool! So if the government cuts my taxes to zero and increases yours to make up for it, you should be happy! :roll:
 
Conservative said:
Where did I say that the govt. has no place in rendering aid to its citizens?
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You've complained about "individual responsibility" the entire thread. I'd say that constitutes government having no place in helping its citizens from your point of view.

[quoteWhat you don't understand is we have 50 independent states that are closer to the problem than the bureaucrats in D.C. What does a bureaucrat in D.C. know about the problems in your area? [/quote]

States collect data on various programs all the time. I receive reports on a regular basis covering a wide variety of issues related to the health and welfare of the residents within my state. It's part of how states gather information concerning the stability and/or efficiency of the programs they manage.

I am still waiting for you to explain to me why it is the Federal Govt. responsibility to provide health care in state and local communities?
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Let's see...it's called Medicaid and it's done because the health of the nation is crucial to its own survival even with said health is related to the poor...especially when it relates to the poor. But, as I've explained to you before Congress creates the programs thereby setting minimal standards and delegates the responsibility in carrying out such programs to the states. I don't blame the fed for the inefficiency of social programs. I blame the states.
 
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misterman said:
Cool! So if the government cuts my taxes to zero and increases yours to make up for it, you should be happy! :roll:
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Keep trolling, that has nothing to do with the discussion. Oil companies don't tax individuals and use their tax subsidies to expand production and to drill for more oil. What you don't see are the dry holes and the investment required today to find oil. doesn't matter to those inside the beltway, nor does it matter how many taxpaying individuals businesses employ, does it?
 
Objective Voice;1058716164]You've complained about "individual responsibility" the entire thread. I'd say that constitutes government having no place in helping its citizens from your point of view.
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Read the Constitution and stop acting like a fool. The Constitution defines the role of the govt. and no where does it mention healthcare.

States collect data on various programs all the time. I receive reports on a regular basis covering a wide variety of issues related to the health and welfare of the residents within my state. It's part of how states gather information concerning the stability and/or efficiency of the programs they manage.
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Great, then solve the problems in your state and stop looking to someone else to bail you out. It isn't my responsibility to pay for your healthcare nor anyone else's in your state nor is it yours to pay for mine.

Let's see...it's called Medicaid and it's done because the health of the nation is crucial to its own survival even with said health is related to the poor...especially when it relates to the poor. But, as I've explained to you before Congress creates the programs thereby setting minimal standards and delegates the responsibility in carrying out such programs to the states. I don't blame the fed for the inefficiency of social programs. I blame the states.
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BS, Medicaid is the state program, Medicare is the Federal Program, both are riddled with waste, fraud, and abuse yet you blame insurance companies. Where in the Constitution is healthcare mentioned? Federal Bureaucrats that have run up a 13 trillion dollar debt have no business setting minimum anything for individuals.

If you blame the states then do something about it, change your govt. Anyone that believes the Federal govt can do anything better than the states is naive, gullible, and very misinformed. I know my state rep and can call him at any time, state and local issues are his responsibility. No bureaucrat in D.C. gives a damn about what happens in my state except my Representative who is one of 435
 
Conservative said:
By definition a tax reduction comes off the tax liability of a company after it has earned the money. That is what oil companies get but they pay back those taxes in multiples by the employee taxes and the property taxes on what they own in a community along with the royalties paid. Any subsidy to an oil company is in tax reductions and I have no problem with tax reductions as the govt. just wastes money.
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What about the taxpayer funded wars so the oil companies continue to have product to make record profits, and than we pay for it again at the pumps?

Not to mention the increased costs due to increased national security threats due to our killing of innocent people to control their oil.

It seems you forgot to add in those subsidies.
 
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Conservative said:
There is plenty of oil off the coasts of this country that the states refuse to touch.
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BS! Drill baby drill is an election year slogan is what it is!

We haven't produced as much oil as we consume in this country since 1970, despite whether liberals or conservatives were in charge.

Have you never read Cheney's 2001 oil industry task force report that stated that drilling alone is not the answer? Why do you think they recommended our military control of Iraq's oil?
 
Catawba said:
What about the taxpayer funded wars so the oil companies continue to have product to make record profits, and than we pay for it again at the pumps?

Not to mention the increased costs due to increased national security threats due to our killing of innocent people to control their oil.

It seems you forgot to add in those subsidies.
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You seem to have a one track mind if you have a mind at all. You simply don't have a clue about how business works or how our economy runs. Different day, same old distortion by you. Your ignorance puts you in the loon category.
 
Catawba said:
BS! Drill baby drill is an election year slogan is what it is!

We haven't produced as much oil as we consume in this country since 1970, despite whether liberals or conservatives were in charge.

Have you never read Cheney's 2001 oil industry task force report that stated that drilling alone is not the answer? Why do you think they recommended our military control of Iraq's oil?
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How much has the Iraqi Oil helped this country and the oil companies? Drilling alone won't solve the problem but neither will preventing it. Stop with the partisan rhetoric and think for a change.
 
Conservative said:
How much has the Iraqi Oil helped this country and the oil companies?
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I think Cheney and his task force, put it best in their 2001 energy report.

"So, we come to the report’s central dilemma: the American people continue to demand plentiful and cheap energy without sacrifice or inconvenience."

Drilling alone won't solve the problem but neither will preventing it. Stop with the partisan rhetoric and think for a change.
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This is not partisan rhetoric, it is fact. What year since 1970 have we produced as much oil as we consumed, no matter which party was in charge?

Your claim on the other hand, "There is plenty of oil off the coasts of this country that the states refuse to touch." is completely unfounded.
 
Catawba said:
I think Cheney and his task force, put it best in their 2001 energy report.

"So, we come to the report’s central dilemma: the American people continue to demand plentiful and cheap energy without sacrifice or inconvenience."



This is not partisan rhetoric, it is fact. What year since 1970 have we produced as much oil as we consumed, no matter which party was in charge?

Your claim on the other hand, "There is plenty of oil off the coasts of this country that the states refuse to touch." is completely unfounded.
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My claim was in regards to royalties and thus revenue to the states and that claim is accurate. No one was talking about energy independence in this thread.

You really have a hatred for oil companies. I spent 35 years working for one and can tell you that you don't know what you are talking about on that issue.
 
Conservative said:
Read the Constitution and stop acting like a fool. The Constitution defines the role of the govt. and no where does it mention healthcare.
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No, but it DOES mention "promote the general welfare" for its citizens. The argument continues...ensuring a health citizenry is part of looking after the general welfare of the country in terms of both public health, the national debt AND the economy. It's all tied together. It's just a shame some people can't see that.

Great, then solve the problems in your state and stop looking to someone else to bail you out. It isn't my responsibility to pay for your healthcare nor anyone else's in your state nor is it yours to pay for mine.
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And for the ump-teenth time, I put in my 40+ hrs per week and pay my health insurance premiums like most everyone else. You don't provide one plug nickle towards my well-being. So, you can get off that soap box, Mister. I'm advocating for those who can't afford it but are doing everything they can to lead honest lives but for one reason or another can't get a break. But for some reason, that still hasn't gotten through your thick skull. We're on the same side as far as illegals receiving free health care via emergency rooms or for those who are gaming the system. My argument continues to be that some people simply need help and can't get it any other way except from the state or federal government. So, please, stop trying to twist my arguments into something they are not.

BS, Medicaid is the state program, Medicare is the Federal Program, both are riddled with waste, fraud, and abuse yet you blame insurance companies. Where in the Constitution is healthcare mentioned? Federal Bureaucrats that have run up a 13 trillion dollar debt have no business setting minimum anything for individuals.
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Medicaid IS a "joint-venture" between the federal gov't and the individual states. I should know; I work with Medicaid clients everyday. I have a very good understanding of how the system works.

If you blame the states then do something about it, change your govt. Anyone that believes the Federal govt can do anything better than the states is naive, gullible, and very misinformed.
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And for the last time, I've never claimed that the fed was more efficient than state gov't in running social programs, only that state gov't, IMO, is more to blame for perpetuating the problems with the social programs they've been empowered to run. Read my words and try not to inject your own personal or political biasness in them.

(Sidenote: For those interested, here's an interesting twist on the health insurance mandate viewed from a personal taxation point of view...)
 
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Objective Voice said:
No, but it DOES mention "promote the general welfare" for its citizens.
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BIG NEGATIVE! It DOES say "general welfare" but ABSOLUTELY NOT the "citizens"... You may interpret it differently, but the word "citizens" is a COMPLETE fabrication.. It is NOT there!

You may wish to argue but unless you live in a different country with a different constitution then the words speak for themselves without your extensions of progressive pseudo-logic.

BUT feel free to SHOW us all where it does say citizens of the State.. it would settle a LOT of arguments and support your pro-bloated government position.
 
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