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Thread: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Debunk them.
    Been doing it for years here alone and really don't feel like going through all that spiel again. I'll let UHC proponents figure it out the hard way this time. Although if you want to check the archives be my guest.



    Show me. At least I have attempted to provide outside data other than my own opinion.
    Look up consumer satisfaction surveys if they are provided, that is a direct indicator of how your healthcare is working, and for what it's worth, don't use the WHO, they are a lousy determinant as they do not use any truly relavent data.


    I would hardly say that Canada is going broke. It seems that they have enough money for existing programs.
    And they also have a much smaller military budget, an easier border policy, etc. etc. I'm just waking up again so I don't remember if I said the country was going broke or not(if I did I misspoke)

    NHS is losing money though. You are right about that.
    Now, keep in mind this is with a much smaller operating overhead than our government uses, that system is going broke with other programs they could borrow from, we are overextended.

    And yes I am someone who wants it, because I believe it would be good for the country.
    I respect your opinion, but couldn't disagree more. You differ than many of the UHC agendists though in at least you debate rather than sneak around or proclaim(using other's sources I might add). The end goal of single payer would bankrupt the country, it will always be a distraction from other issues because of the dynamic nature of costs in healthcare, patient options will diminish because you aren't directly paying for your own care anymore(as much has been seen in other countries), etc.
    Last edited by LaMidRighter; 03-27-10 at 06:44 PM.
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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    you know, admittedly this is all the way back to the OP, but it occurs to me:

    are democrats really that afraid of this bill that they are now desperate to try to pin blame for it on the GOP?

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    The giant misnomer of this argument will be explained like this:

    A mandate to buy groceries for your children, that's a good idea.
    A mandate to buy a pink elephant to feed your children, a bad idea.

    I hope you see the difference between the two medical care platforms.
    One is a mandate to buy catastrophic coverage, the other is a mandate to buy a full prepayment medical policy that will be expensive.

    Nice try but the smear on this is falsely identified.
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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Thanks Gina and BWG

    However, what you showed kind of re-enforces my point. While the mandating of insurance is similar, there are a number of difference between the two bills that is at the core a likely reason its okay then and not now. For example, one of the key ones it seems is the ability to purchase between state lines. This opens up competition in the market place making insurance more varied, more affordable, and gives more choices to those having to buy it. From what I've seen the penalties for buying your own insurance, and buying very good insurance for yourself, were not present in the older bill which again makes the choice more difficult.

    The plan from 1993 also had a number of things, such a reform of malpractice law, that have been denied going into this.

    It also doesn't seem to have a number of things, such as the direct access to our bank accounts, a government panel making decisions regarding what treatment you can have (without the appeals process found in private insurance), subsidizing union contracts, and other such things that add to this.

    As I've stated, I very much dislike the notion of mandated insurance. I think its a constitutionally problematic thing that I believe violates the spirit more so than the letter of it. That said, as part of a compromised bill which stressed consumer responsibility and choice of private insurance with the government simply, at most, as a safety net...without a number of penalties and regulations that seem to have no real purpose other than to set the stage for continual legislation pushes towards more people choosing or needing the government plan and thus moving to single payer...could be a compromised type bill I could get behind if done honestly and above the board while in the minority...as the republicans were in 1993.

    That is not the case, in any way here. Many of the core conservative ideas for fixing things have been utterly rejected. The only real compromise that's been presented is "We'll make it LESS liberal" in most cases. The various regulations, penalties, and fines on individuals, business, and the insurance companies appears to be a clear attempt to make it either difficult or inefficient to get the insurance you want, you want to provide as a business owner, or you need to provide to get a profit as an insurance provider. This, coupled with the mandate for individual insurance, I believe is going to simply set the stage for more problems, not less, to simply give a way to say "See, we should've done single payer in the first place, lets do it now".

    I don't see those same things in the 1993 plan.
    Zyphlin, I never stated nor implied the 1993 Republican was identical to the bill that was just passed. I said, and provided proof, that today's law has roots in the 1993 and one of those similarities is the one which the GOP is screaming about the loudest. The individual mandate. I find that hypocritical when four of the sponsors of this bill still in congress bluster over that point now.

    Beyond that there were these other aspects which could have been built upon: Beyond the requirement that everyone have insurance, both call for purchasing pools and standardized insurance plans. Both call for a ban on insurers denying coverage or raising premiums because a person has been sick in the past. Both even call for increased federal research into the effectiveness of medical treatments — something else that used to have strong bipartisan support, but that Republicans have been backing away from recently.

    Yes, it was made less liberal in order to appeal to the GOP. They still rejected it, oh well.

    There is a fundamental problem in arguing about health care legislation. The Republicans lost power. They were never going to get all or the majority of what they wanted, that is our political process. The party which wins, shapes legislation to their political ideology. The GOP never seemed to accept this.

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    Yes, it was made less liberal in order to appeal to the GOP. They still rejected it, oh well.
    WRONG. it was made less liberal because otherwise even Democrats wouldn't vote for it.

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you know, admittedly this is all the way back to the OP, but it occurs to me:

    are democrats really that afraid of this bill that they are now desperate to try to pin blame for it on the GOP?
    They know it's a piece-a-crap, just like everyone else knows it's a piece-a-crap. They're desperate to deflect blame however and where ever they can.
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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    Zyphlin, I never stated nor implied the 1993 Republican was identical to the bill that was just passed. I said, and provided proof, that today's law has roots in the 1993 and one of those similarities is the one which the GOP is screaming about the loudest. The individual mandate. I find that hypocritical when four of the sponsors of this bill still in congress bluster over that point now.

    Beyond that there were these other aspects which could have been built upon: Beyond the requirement that everyone have insurance, both call for purchasing pools and standardized insurance plans. Both call for a ban on insurers denying coverage or raising premiums because a person has been sick in the past. Both even call for increased federal research into the effectiveness of medical treatments — something else that used to have strong bipartisan support, but that Republicans have been backing away from recently.

    Yes, it was made less liberal in order to appeal to the GOP. They still rejected it, oh well.

    There is a fundamental problem in arguing about health care legislation. The Republicans lost power. They were never going to get all or the majority of what they wanted, that is our political process. The party which wins, shapes legislation to their political ideology. The GOP never seemed to accept this.
    That's the messed up thing though.

    They had an opportunity to help fix the problem and they decided to sell out to corporate interests.
    Everyone should be pissed, they shouldn't accept it because it was the wrong thing to do.

    It was a bill crafted on political expediency.
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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you know, admittedly this is all the way back to the OP, but it occurs to me:

    are democrats really that afraid of this bill that they are now desperate to try to pin blame for it on the GOP?
    Nope.

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    are democrats really that afraid of this bill that they are now desperate to try to pin blame for it on the GOP?
    Oh no, absolutley not. The Republicans will forever be known as being unanimously opposed to this historic legislation. Just pointing out the faux outrage now, when in the past they have favored the purchase mandate.
    “We just simply don’t know how to govern” - Rep. Steve Womack (R-AR) a member of the House Budget Committee

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina
    Zyphlin, I never stated nor implied the 1993 Republican was identical to the bill that was just passed. I said, and provided proof, that today's law has roots in the 1993 and one of those similarities is the one which the GOP is screaming about the loudest. The individual mandate. I find that hypocritical when four of the sponsors of this bill still in congress bluster over that point now.
    It was also proposed in the Healthy Americans Act (S. 334), otherwise known as the Wyden-Bennett bill after Senator Ron Wyden (D-OR) and his chief co-sponsor, Senator Robert Bennett (R-UT). It was co-sponsored by both Republicans and Democrats.
    “We just simply don’t know how to govern” - Rep. Steve Womack (R-AR) a member of the House Budget Committee

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