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Thread: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post

    I have yet to have a single, solitary person on this forum provide any actual evidence of the actual proposal that was given in 1993. I've seen bloggers speaking about it, typically referencing other bloggers. I've seen a 3rd party comparison chart that is exceedingly lacking in specifics and depth. However I've seen absolutely zero hard evidence of a plan to be able to look at it independently and actually compare, despite some people on this site claiming they're nearly "identical" yet never having seen it themselves.

    In 1993 the Republicans were a minority group, likely suggesting a plan that would look bipartisan and compromising in nature rather than one that was the idea thing they'd want. However there has been no indication anywhere that I've seen of the penalties or enforcement that was in the 1993 plan, which alone could paint a very different picture.

    As I've said before, one could say someone should like Golf if they like Football because that shows they like games with a ball in it. One could also say that would be an incredibly ignorant comment to make.

    Without actual evidence and ability to look at the plan, to see the reasonings surrounding it almost 20 years ago, and the difference between now its hard to really make such a claim, unless you're one of the typically dishonest hyper partisan types, that its automatically hypocritical or partisan to say that almost 20 years ago people in a party supported a plan that had this one particular thing in it, the extent of which is completely unknown, but to be against this current plan.

    I responded to you yesterday on this, but possibly you didn't see it.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1058645088


    The point is that there are Republican ideas and similarities (as noted in the article below) that could have been built upon. Instead they pretended like there was no part of it they agreed with. It had to be scrapped before they would even consider it. Remember, Republicans are the minority party and therefore any legislation would never be exactly what they would like to see. Those are the consequences of losing an election.

    Here is the best I could do. I could not find his 1993 plan online.

    Republicans Spurn Once-Favored Health Mandate | 89.3 KPCC


    But Hatch's opposition is ironic, or some would say, politically motivated. The last time Congress debated a health overhaul, when Bill Clinton was president, Hatch and several other senators who now oppose the so-called individual mandate actually supported a bill that would have required it.

    In fact, says Len Nichols of the New America Foundation, the individual mandate was originally a Republican idea. "It was invented by Mark Pauly to give to George Bush Sr. back in the day, as a competition to the employer mandate focus of the Democrats at the time."

    The 'Free-Rider Effect'

    Pauly, a conservative health economist at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School, says it wasn't just his idea. Back in the late 1980s — when Democrats were pushing not just a requirement for employers to provide insurance, but also the possibility of a government-sponsored single-payer system — "a group of economists and health policy people, market-oriented, sat down and said, 'Let's see if we can come up with a health reform proposal that would preserve a role for markets but would also achieve universal coverage.' "

    The idea of the individual mandate was about the only logical way to get there, Pauly says. That's because even with the most generous subsidies or enticements, "there would always be some Evel Knievels of health insurance, who would decline coverage even if the subsidies were very generous, and even if they could afford it, quote unquote, so if you really wanted to close the gap, that's the step you'd have to take."

    One reason the individual mandate appealed to conservatives is because it called for individual responsibility to address what economists call the "free-rider effect." That's the fact that if a person is in an accident or comes down with a dread disease, that person is going to get medical care, and someone is going to pay for it.

    "We called this responsible national health insurance," says Pauly. "There was a kind of an ethical and moral support for the notion that people shouldn't be allowed to free-ride on the charity of fellow citizens."

    Republican, Democratic Bills Strikingly Similar

    So while President Clinton was pushing for employers to cover their workers in his 1993 bill, John Chafee of Rhode Island, along with 20 other GOP senators and Rep. Bill Thomas of California, introduced legislation that instead featured an individual mandate. Four of those Republican co-sponsors — Hatch, Charles Grassley of Iowa, Robert Bennett of Utah and Christopher Bond of Missouri — remain in the Senate today.

    The GOP's 1993 measure included some features Republicans still want Democrats to consider, including damage award caps for medical malpractice lawsuits.

    But the summary of the Republican bill from the Clinton era and the Democratic bills that passed the House and Senate over the past few months are startlingly alike.

    Beyond the requirement that everyone have insurance, both call for purchasing pools and standardized insurance plans. Both call for a ban on insurers denying coverage or raising premiums because a person has been sick in the past. Both even call for increased federal research into the effectiveness of medical treatments — something else that used to have strong bipartisan support, but that Republicans have been backing away from recently.

    'A Sad Testament'

    Nichols, of the New America Foundation, says he's depressed that so many issues that used to be part of the Republican health agenda are now being rejected by Republican leaders and most of the rank and file. "I think it's a sad testament to the state of relations among the parties that they've gotten to this point," he said.

    And how does economist Pauly feel about the GOP's retreat from the individual mandate they used to promote? "That's not something that makes me particularly happy," he says.

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    I've been saying these sorts of things for the last year but nobody listens. "Look, these were all GOP ideas first!" is always met with "Nuh UH" or some really convoluted reasoning for why the GOP didn't actually support the bills they proposed.

    Conservatives, for the most part, seem to be mentally rewriting history to suit their mental image of the way the world should be. "We didn't have any terrorist attacks under Bush, we've now had one under Obama." Guiliani said that on ABC, and the chucklehead interviewing him didn't even ****ing call him on it. So much for the liberal media.

    Republicans are calling a mandate a government takeover of healthcare, "armageddon," it's going to destroy the country, it's unconstitutional to make people buy insurance, but they introduced the idea themselves. Wasn't it unconstitutional then, Republicans?

    I start to wonder, what's the point? Why bother talking to these people at all? If conservatives are operating on a different set of historical facts and a different dictionary than the rest of us, what use is any discussion at all?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    I've been saying these sorts of things for the last year but nobody listens. "Look, these were all GOP ideas first!" is always met with "Nuh UH" or some really convoluted reasoning for why the GOP didn't actually support the bills they proposed.

    Conservatives, for the most part, seem to be mentally rewriting history to suit their mental image of the way the world should be. "We didn't have any terrorist attacks under Bush, we've now had one under Obama." Guiliani said that on ABC, and the chucklehead interviewing him didn't even ****ing call him on it. So much for the liberal media.

    Republicans are calling a mandate a government takeover of healthcare, "armageddon," it's going to destroy the country, it's unconstitutional to make people buy insurance, but they introduced the idea themselves. Wasn't it unconstitutional then, Republicans?

    I start to wonder, what's the point? Why bother talking to these people at all? If conservatives are operating on a different set of historical facts and a different dictionary than the rest of us, what use is any discussion at all?
    Who IMPLEMENTED them? Democrats. Who suggested them is irrelevant as the acting party owns the actions.
    Besides, if this was anything more than an idea from Republicans, as has been shown in this thread as a less bad alternative to a horrible public option then they would have IMPLEMENTED them when they had the majority.

    In short: The Democrats own this, so people need to stop trying to pass the ball.
    /Thread.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Who IMPLEMENTED them? Democrats. Who suggested them is irrelevant as the acting party owns the actions.
    Besides, if this was anything more than an idea from Republicans, as has been shown in this thread as a less bad alternative to a horrible public option then they would have IMPLEMENTED them when they had the majority.

    In short: The Democrats own this, so people need to stop trying to pass the ball.
    /Thread.

    So what you're saying is the Republicans introduced a bill they believed with all their hearts was grossly harmful and unconstitutional?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    So what you're saying is the Republicans introduced a bill they believed with all their hearts was grossly harmful and unconstitutional?
    Versus a worse option that was equally so. Doesn't matter in the end though, the Democrat part majority leadership voted to implement it with no Republican yea votes. So congratulations, you own it and there is nothing you can say that will change the fact that you own it.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Interesting. I guess it shows how much politics in this country is heading to the right if a republican idea 10 years ago is a democrat idea today.

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Interesting. I guess it shows how much politics in this country is heading to the right if a republican idea 10 years ago is a democrat idea today.
    Right, but the writings by Orrin Hatch were an admission that it was the political version of a logic bomb, it was in there back then specifically to make the bill unconstitutional and thus unusable at the time. Unfortunately, this batch of Democrats were even dumber than given credit for and used the provision anyway. Let's be fair, no one can count for stupidity in even the best laid plans.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Versus a worse option that was equally so. Doesn't matter in the end though, the Democrat part majority leadership voted to implement it with no Republican yea votes. So congratulations, you own it and there is nothing you can say that will change the fact that you own it.
    Nice strawman there chief. That wasn't what anybody was arguing.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Nice strawman there chief. That wasn't what anybody was arguing.
    Sorry to interrupt this partisan gotcha game, but it is part of the argument, and the reality is you all own this thing. But hey, I knew I wasn't going to get much out of you......feel free to continue.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Sorry to interrupt this partisan gotcha game, but it is part of the argument, and the reality is you all own this thing. But hey, I knew I wasn't going to get much out of you......feel free to continue.
    I'm happy to take credit for it. Thanks!

    The point people are trying to make, that is escaping you it seems, is that Republicans are being deceitful in their opposition to this bill.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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