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Thread: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The 93' Republican plan involved catastrophic coverage not comprehensive coverage.
    You being dishonest or you don't really understand it.
    The main thrust of the plan is the individual mandate as opposed to an entitlement program covered by taxes.

    So you don't think that the increasing restrictions on the market correlate with the failure?
    As I showed, the market had already failed us. The constitution seeks to promote the general welfare of the we the people, not the welfare of the corporations.
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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The main thrust of the plan is the individual mandate as opposed to an entitlement program covered by taxes.
    A subsidized but unenforceable mandate.
    It's still an entitlement program for a great many people.
    Of course you have to add in taxes from all those listed in the bill.

    The core of this bill though are the other mandates which you conveniently ignore.
    You're baiting conservatives but for me, your rouse doesn't work so well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    As I showed, the market had already failed us. The constitution seeks to promote the general welfare of the we the people, not the welfare of the corporations.
    You have yet to show anything.
    You said that the market needs restriction and when I pose the question of what happens when those restrictions fail, you say the market needs further restriction.
    A very flawed logic.

    You also fail to note the correlation between market restriction and increase in costs, which is totally public policy.

    Further the bill indirectly subsidizes corporation further by subsidizing individuals and softly mandating them to purchase coverage.
    So it seems you only like corporate welfare when it's your brand of Congress and President.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 04-05-10 at 01:59 AM.
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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    A subsidized but unenforceable mandate.
    It's still an entitlement program for a great many people.
    Of course you have to add in taxes from all those listed in the bill.

    The core of this bill though are the other mandates which you conveniently ignore.
    You're baiting conservatives but for me, your rouse doesn't work so well.
    If you want to see a real entitlement program, see the health care plans in the rest of the developed countries.


    You have yet to show anything.
    You said that the market needs restriction and when I pose the question of what happens when those restrictions fail, you say the market needs further restriction.
    A very flawed logic.

    You also fail to note the correlation between market restriction and increase in costs, which is totally public policy.
    A 300% increase in insurance cost over the last 10 years represented a failed situation for myself and the majority of voters in the last election. That is why we voted in representatives that would provide an affordable alternative. While assuredly the current plan is not near as preferable as a single payer system, as I mentioned before, with our severe conservative mentality handicap in this country, I can only expect baby steps in social progress. We have to learn how to crawl before we can walk with the big boys (the rest of the developed world) in adopting real UHC.

    Further the bill indirectly subsidizes corporation further by subsidizing individuals and softly mandating them to purchase coverage.
    So it seems you only like corporate welfare when it's your brand of Congress and President.
    First you say it will restrict insurance corporations to the point of failure, and then you say it will subsidize them to the point of corporate welfare.

    Which one do you want to go with?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    A 300% increase in insurance cost over the last 10 years represented a failed situation for myself and the majority of voters in the last election. That is why we voted in representatives that would provide an affordable alternative.
    How's that working out for ya?

    CBO estimates both individual and group premiums will increase anywhere between 10 and 17%.

    CBO was able to estimate, by ignoring the doc fix, some reduction in the deficit...add the doc fix in, which is explicitly a part of Obamacare, a the deficit starts taking massive annual hits.

    You were saying something about voting in reps that would enact affordable...oh, never mind, silly.

    While assuredly the current plan is not near as preferable as a single payer system, as I mentioned before, with our severe conservative mentality handicap in this country, I can only expect baby steps in social progress. We have to learn how to crawl before we can walk with the big boys (the rest of the developed world) in adopting real UHC.
    Oh? You want to see an ever-increasingly costly health system like France's result in 15,000 deaths in a mere three weeks because of a minor heat wave? You want to have a shortage of labor and delivery rooms as there is in Britain and replicate Britain's NICE (look it up, makes death panels seem relatively wonderful)? You want cancer treatment to be rationed as it is in Canada?

    Great plan, yo.

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative Sword View Post
    How's that working out for ya?
    I'll let you know in ten years when my rates do not increase another 300% like the did during the last ten years.

    CBO estimates both individual and group premiums will increase anywhere between 10 and 17%.
    Far preferable to 300%.

    CBO was able to estimate, by ignoring the doc fix, some reduction in the deficit...add the doc fix in, which is explicitly a part of Obamacare, a the deficit starts taking massive annual hits.
    Can you link the part of the HCR passed where the doc fix is included? It was not rated because it was not part of the plan.

    You were saying something about voting in reps that would enact affordable...
    Since the CBO did not project premiums raising 300% in the next 10 years as it did under the status quo during the last decade, yes, I expect it to be more affordable.

    Oh? You want to see an ever-increasingly costly health system like France's result in 15,000 deaths in a mere three weeks because of a minor heat wave? You want to have a shortage of labor and delivery rooms as there is in Britain and replicate Britain's NICE (look it up, makes death panels seem relatively wonderful)? You want cancer treatment to be rationed as it is in Canada?
    I want a health care plan like the 36 countries that have a higher rated system than the US at a fraction of what we pay for health care here.
    Great plan,....
    Indeed, that is why the rest of the developed world adopted a UHC system years ago!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    A 300% increase in insurance cost over the last 10 years represented a failed situation for myself and the majority of voters in the last election. That is why we voted in representatives that would provide an affordable alternative. While assuredly the current plan is not near as preferable as a single payer system, as I mentioned before, with our severe conservative mentality handicap in this country, I can only expect baby steps in social progress. We have to learn how to crawl before we can walk with the big boys (the rest of the developed world) in adopting real UHC.
    Still arguing with the ole appeal to the majority fallacy.
    Then you snipe at conservatives by painting them as disabled persons, not socially progressive of you.
    Back up your reasoning with facts instead of, well nothing substantial.

    So you can't back up that it was the market the caused the problems and you still ignore the fact that increases in restrictions and mandates have correlated with increases in prices.

    You're very fond of unfounded assumptions I see.
    How is UHC social progress?
    What facts can you provide that UHC will work for the U.S.?
    Remember that Medicaid and Medicare are busting our budgets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    First you say it will restrict insurance corporations to the point of failure, and then you say it will subsidize them to the point of corporate welfare.

    Which one do you want to go with?
    I didn't say that it would cause insurance corporations to fail.
    I said the legislation would fail, maybe you should read what I write.

    How about you tell me why you still believe the President and Congress, when their words and their actions are a complete contradiction?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Still arguing with the ole appeal to the majority fallacy.
    That's how elections are decided in a Republic.

    So you can't back up that it was the market the caused the problems and you still ignore the fact that increases in restrictions and mandates have correlated with increases in prices.
    I've provided my personal situation that was unsustainable under the status quo.

    In addition:

    " * The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention actually reported that 54.5 million people were uninsured for at least part of the year. Health Insurance Coverage: Early Release of Estimates from the National Health Interview Survey, 2006. Centers for Disease Control. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhis/ea...nsur200706.pdf

    * The amount of uninsured is rising every year, as premiums continue to skyrocket and wages stagnate. From 2004 to 2005 the number of uninsured rose 1.3 million, and rose up nearly 6 million from 2001-2005. Leighton Ku, "Census Revises Estimates Of The Number Of Uninsured People," Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, April 5, 2007 Census Revises Estimates of the Number of Uninsured People — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. With 44.8 uninsured in 2005, in 2007 the number will be much higher. Professors Todd Gilmer and Richard Kronick, in "It's The Premiums, Stupid: Projections Of The Uninsured Through 2013," Health Affairs, 10.1377/hlthaff.w5.143, "project that the number of non-elderly uninsured Americans will grow from forty-five million in 2003 to fifty-six million by 2013." According to these authors, by now the number of non-elderly uninsured by this date clearly would be nearly 50 million."

    "According to the Institute of Medicine, "lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States. Although America leads the world in spending on health care, it is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage." Insuring America's Health: Principles and Recommendations, Institute of Medicine, January 2004.
    http://www.iom.edu/?id=19175"
    MichaelMoore.com : SiCKO : Checkup on the Facts

    You have provided no "facts" that increases in restrictions and mandates have caused increases and prices.

    How is UHC social progress?

    What facts can you provide that UHC will work for the U.S.?

    Remember that Medicaid and Medicare are busting our budgets.
    Dozens of countries have been rated with a better health care system for more of their people for far less cost than the US. M/M operate at an efficiency that cannot be matched in the private market. They are busting our budgets because of the unregulated rise in medical costs in the US and priority for an energy program that requires Middle East wars.

    I think the US has the capacity to act as intelligently as the rest of the developed world.


    How about you tell me why you still believe the President and Congress, when their words and their actions are a complete contradiction?
    Not sure what you mean there. The difference I see is one between a moderate goal and a conservative reality.
    Last edited by Catawba; 04-05-10 at 05:00 AM.
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  8. #168
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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Yep, 10-17% beats 300%.

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    would this be kind of like how the Democratic party voted for the war in Iraq before they voted against it?
    They never voted for the war. No one did. No matter how much you want to say you know what they really meant, reading minds and all, the fact is all they voted for was to let Bush decide. There was never any declaration of war. They never ever voted on going to war.

    So, no, it wouldn't be anything like that.

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    Re: New health insurance requirement.....was a GOP idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    They never voted for the war. No one did. No matter how much you want to say you know what they really meant, reading minds and all, the fact is all they voted for was to let Bush decide. There was never any declaration of war. They never ever voted on going to war.

    So, no, it wouldn't be anything like that.
    Yes, they let Bush decide and when he decided they supported it until it went south and then for political reasons they turned on the President and with the help of the media did their best to destroy Bush ignoring their responsibility to the country.

    In the process they turned their backs on our military and the average American citizen as they gave aid to our enemies. "The War is Lost" Harry Reid along with the other Democrat Opportunists in Congress were more concerned about regaining the WH than doing their job for the American people. We are paying the consequences for that type of "leadership" today.

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