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Thread: Nearly 50 percent of doctors ready to quit medicine if Healthcare bill passes

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    Re: Nearly 50 percent of doctors ready to quit medicine if Healthcare bill passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Because those numbers don't directly relate to the currant program. They cannot tell us what future programs will do, as they are different programs. All programs, both in the private sector and in the public sector rely on projections. It's the way it works.
    What they tell you is the history of govt. spending on social programs and the results. Why do you buy what the govt. is telling you now especially this govt.? Do you realize when this healthcare program goes into effect? Did you pay any attention to the CBO report on the Healthcare Bill and how long before it becomes deficit neutral and starts saving money? Think, Boo, you are too smart to sound this foolish. Why do you buy CBO numbers that far out?

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    Re: Nearly 50 percent of doctors ready to quit medicine if Healthcare bill passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    What they tell you is the history of govt. spending on social programs and the results. Why do you buy what the govt. is telling you now especially this govt.? Do you realize when this healthcare program goes into effect? Did you pay any attention to the CBO report on the Healthcare Bill and how long before it becomes deficit neutral and starts saving money? Think, Boo, you are too smart to sound this foolish. Why do you buy CBO numbers that far out?
    Not really. It's very limited in what it tells us.

    And I know full well when it goes into effect. A program like this can't be pushed quickly. Nor should it be.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Nearly 50 percent of doctors ready to quit medicine if Healthcare bill passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not really. It's very limited in what it tells us.

    And I know full well when it goes into effect. A program like this can't be pushed quickly. Nor should it be.
    Boo, what is it going to take to get you to understand how much a trillion dollars is and how that is paid for? After someone explains to you how much a trillion dollars is, by the way predictions which you don't agree with say this bill will cost 2.5 trillion, then we need to get you to look at the details of the bill that does absolutely nothing to improve the quality of healthcare or the quantity of doctors and hospitals. Yes, it increases access to the system, but nothing to lower actual costs.

    you are betting on projections 20 years out that have never been right that costs will be controlled and this will work. See what happened to the market today because of excessive spending in Greece? Think that cannot happen here?

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    Re: Nearly 50 percent of doctors ready to quit medicine if Healthcare bill passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Boo, what is it going to take to get you to understand how much a trillion dollars is and how that is paid for? After someone explains to you how much a trillion dollars is, by the way predictions which you don't agree with say this bill will cost 2.5 trillion, then we need to get you to look at the details of the bill that does absolutely nothing to improve the quality of healthcare or the quantity of doctors and hospitals. Yes, it increases access to the system, but nothing to lower actual costs.

    you are betting on projections 20 years out that have never been right that costs will be controlled and this will work. See what happened to the market today because of excessive spending in Greece? Think that cannot happen here?
    You're mistake is thinking I don't understand. I fully understand how much money is involved, and that there is no chance of bringing down the debt without increasing taxes, cutting spending, and addressing health care, which will require spending before seeing results. Ever hear the saying it takes money to make money?

    And what I'm betting on is that this isn't the end of the effort. Nothing is set in stone. We can continue to work to improve the bill even now, after it has passed.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Nearly 50 percent of doctors ready to quit medicine if Healthcare bill passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You're mistake is thinking I don't understand. I fully understand how much money is involved, and that there is no chance of bringing down the debt without increasing taxes, cutting spending, and addressing health care, which will require spending before seeing results. Ever hear the saying it takes money to make money?

    And what I'm betting on is that this isn't the end of the effort. Nothing is set in stone. We can continue to work to improve the bill even now, after it has passed.
    The problem is you have bought into the basic concept that access equals improved quality and that the govt. can do it better. Then you keep saying we can improve the bill. Please give me an example of where that has ever happened with legislation.

    This bill is a multi TRILLION dollar POS that as stated many times does nothing to improve quality or quantity yet passed. You are betting with money that you don't have and that is what politicians do so they just print money.

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    Re: Nearly 50 percent of doctors ready to quit medicine if Healthcare bill passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    The problem is you have bought into the basic concept that access equals improved quality and that the govt. can do it better. Then you keep saying we can improve the bill. Please give me an example of where that has ever happened with legislation.

    This bill is a multi TRILLION dollar POS that as stated many times does nothing to improve quality or quantity yet passed. You are betting with money that you don't have and that is what politicians do so they just print money.
    Think for a second. If there is no access, there is no possibility of quality. To even begin to improve quality, you must improve access. The government is providing quality, they're providing better access. They don't run hospitals, or manage doctors, or dictate treatment. This Bill only moves to greater coverage, which increases access, which is a vital step toward improved care.

    Second, there are incentives in the bill to reward lower costs and better care, not to mention more primary care physicians.

    As for bills that continue after the reform starts, follow work place safety:

    In 1877, Massachusetts passed the Nation's first factory inspection law. It required guarding of belts, shafts, and gears, protection on elevators, and adequate fire exits.2 Its passage prompted a flurry of State factory acts. By 1890, nine States provided for factory inspectors, 13 required machine guarding, and 21 made limited provision for health hazards.

    The labyrinth of State job safety and health legislation covered a wide range of workplace hazards but was badly flawed. There were too many holes in the piecemeal system and numerous hazards were left uncontrolled. The laws had to be amended often to cover new hazards. Many legislatures failed to provide adequate funds for enforcement. Inspectors, who were often political appointees, were not always given the legal right to enter workplaces. State with strong safety and health laws tended to lose industry to those with less stringent ones, which made States competitive and limited their legislative efforts.

    (snip)

    The Federal Government was relatively inactive, though not dormant, on safety and health until the era of workers' compensation. In 1790, the First Congress passed an ineffective merchant seaman's act which gave the crew of a ship at sea the right to order the vessel into the nearest port if a majority of the seamen plus the first mate believed it was unseaworthy.9

    (Snip)

    By 1969, the idea of a general job safety and health law had taken hold. Beginning in 1965, Congress passed several laws protecting various groups of workers. The Service Contracts Act of 1965 and the Federal Construction Safety and Health Act of 1969 provided missing links in the protection of Government contractor employees. The 1966 Metal and Non-metallic Mine Safety Act protected non coal miners. A mine explosion in 1968 causing 68 deaths in Farmington, W.Va., spurred Congress to pass the Coal Mine Health and Safety Act of 1969.

    U.S. Department of Labor -- History -- The Job Safety Law of 1970: Its Passage Was Perilous

    Work conditions are clearly better today in large part due to safety regulations. And they improved over time.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Nearly 50 percent of doctors ready to quit medicine if Healthcare bill passes

    Boo Radley;1058735424]Think for a second. If there is no access, there is no possibility of quality. To even begin to improve quality, you must improve access. The government is providing quality, they're providing better access. They don't run hospitals, or manage doctors, or dictate treatment. This Bill only moves to greater coverage, which increases access, which is a vital step toward improved care.
    Wrong, to improve quality you have to have the dollars to do the research and the dollars to increase the infrastructure. You downplay the doctor shortage now because it doesn't support your point of view.

    Second, there are incentives in the bill to reward lower costs and better care, not to mention more primary care physicians.
    There are incentives there that do not offset the costs that have to be paid and then there is that pesky little opt out option. There is no incentive to improve the R&D to improve quality.

    As for bills that continue after the reform starts, follow work place safety:

    In 1877, Massachusetts passed the Nation's first factory inspection law. It required guarding of belts, shafts, and gears, protection on elevators, and adequate fire exits.2 Its passage prompted a flurry of State factory acts. By 1890, nine States provided for factory inspectors, 13 required machine guarding, and 21 made limited provision for health hazards.

    The labyrinth of State job safety and health legislation covered a wide range of workplace hazards but was badly flawed. There were too many holes in the piecemeal system and numerous hazards were left uncontrolled. The laws had to be amended often to cover new hazards. Many legislatures failed to provide adequate funds for enforcement. Inspectors, who were often political appointees, were not always given the legal right to enter workplaces. State with strong safety and health laws tended to lose industry to those with less stringent ones, which made States competitive and limited their legislative efforts.

    (snip)

    The Federal Government was relatively inactive, though not dormant, on safety and health until the era of workers' compensation. In 1790, the First Congress passed an ineffective merchant seaman's act which gave the crew of a ship at sea the right to order the vessel into the nearest port if a majority of the seamen plus the first mate believed it was unseaworthy.9

    (Snip)

    By 1969, the idea of a general job safety and health law had taken hold. Beginning in 1965, Congress passed several laws protecting various groups of workers. The Service Contracts Act of 1965 and the Federal Construction Safety and Health Act of 1969 provided missing links in the protection of Government contractor employees. The 1966 Metal and Non-metallic Mine Safety Act protected non coal miners. A mine explosion in 1968 causing 68 deaths in Farmington, W.Va., spurred Congress to pass the Coal Mine Health and Safety Act of 1969.

    U.S. Department of Labor -- History -- The Job Safety Law of 1970: Its Passage Was Perilous
    Wow, like a typical liberal you carry things too far, yes improvements were made and those improvements on their own worked but like with every liberal social program they grew, and grew, and grew creating bigger govt. bureaucracies and higher costs. Just like unions, they served their purpose before growing out of control. You need balance, this bill does not provide balance, nor does the EPA, Labor Laws, or any other liberal social program that goes too far.

    Work conditions are clearly better today in large part due to safety regulations. And they improved over time.
    There comes a point when enough is enough and that is something liberals never understand. SS was a good idea now out of control federal bureaucracy with high administrative costs that do nothing to insure the purpose of SS. Same with Medicare, Same with labor laws, same with environmental laws, same with any other liberal feel good program that costs more than intended. Your problem and the problem with all liberals is you cannot accept the reality that it is personal responsibility not govt. responsibility that keeps things safe, makes things better.

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    Re: Nearly 50 percent of doctors ready to quit medicine if Healthcare bill passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Wrong, to improve quality you have to have the dollars to do the research and the dollars to increase the infrastructure. You downplay the doctor shortage now because it doesn't support your point of view.
    You might find a good bit of those dollars come from the government right now. And yes, the doctor shortage has been artificially held short. Greater need will lead to more doctors. That's the way it works.

    There are incentives there that do not offset the costs that have to be paid and then there is that pesky little opt out option. There is no incentive to improve the R&D to improve quality.
    Again, R&D still get federal dollars. Nothing in this bill hiders R&D at all. Many medical advances are made at teaching hospitals and universities, most often supported by government money. Not all mind you, but many. DO you need a link for that?


    Wow, like a typical liberal you carry things too far, yes improvements were made and those improvements on their own worked but like with every liberal social program they grew, and grew, and grew creating bigger govt. bureaucracies and higher costs. Just like unions, they served their purpose before growing out of control. You need balance, this bill does not provide balance, nor does the EPA, Labor Laws, or any other liberal social program that goes too far.
    You will find that business also creates bureaucracies when they grow. What you asked for was an example of changing after passing, for the better. That was ONE example. Few efforts stay the same with no changes, nor should they. The point is this is not the last word.

    There comes a point when enough is enough and that is something liberals never understand. SS was a good idea now out of control federal bureaucracy with high administrative costs that do nothing to insure the purpose of SS. Same with Medicare, Same with labor laws, same with environmental laws, same with any other liberal feel good program that costs more than intended. Your problem and the problem with all liberals is you cannot accept the reality that it is personal responsibility not govt. responsibility that keeps things safe, makes things better.
    Well, I don't see a large number clamoring to end those things. Despite problems, we do seem to be better off with those things than without them. Can you remember when Lake Erie caught on fire? (Actually a tributary feeding the lake) Or how about when meat was unsafe? Of that recent thing with peanut butter? Trusting enterprise to police themselves has often been problematic, more problematic than government interventions.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Nearly 50 percent of doctors ready to quit medicine if Healthcare bill passes

    Boo Radley;1058735545]You might find a good bit of those dollars come from the government right now. And yes, the doctor shortage has been artificially held short. Greater need will lead to more doctors. That's the way it works.
    You might find the key to eternal life on earth too but probably not. Where does the govt. get its money? Most of that so called R&D comes from tax credits, not direct payouts and when you reduce incentive by increasing taxes you reduce the dollars for R&D. Simple concept except to a liberal.

    In addition people in this country choose their profession and are not going into the medical profession. The incentive to enter the profession does not offset the cost of being in the profession.



    Again, R&D still get federal dollars. Nothing in this bill hiders R&D at all. Many medical advances are made at teaching hospitals and universities, most often supported by government money. Not all mind you, but many. DO you need a link for that?
    See above, R&D is a huge expense to improve quality. Many medical advances come in the form of incentive tax cuts, not direct dollars.


    You will find that business also creates bureaucracies when they grow. What you asked for was an example of changing after passing, for the better. That was ONE example. Few efforts stay the same with no changes, nor should they. The point is this is not the last word.
    The difference is the taxpayer doesn't pay for the increase in bureaucracies you claim are created in private industry. You don't like the price you pay from private business, select another one or don't buy.

    Well, I don't see a large number clamoring to end those things. Despite problems, we do seem to be better off with those things than without them. Can you remember when Lake Erie caught on fire? (Actually a tributary feeding the lake) Or how about when meat was unsafe? Of that recent thing with peanut butter? Trusting enterprise to police themselves has often been problematic, more problematic than government interventions.
    Of course you don't, if you put your money into SS and Medicare, don't you EXPECT to get it back?

    Again, you miss the point and ignore the massive increase in bureaucracies to manage those regulations. In your world the means justifies the end which is foolish.

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    Re: Nearly 50 percent of doctors ready to quit medicine if Healthcare bill passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You might find the key to eternal life on earth too but probably not. Where does the govt. get its money? Most of that so called R&D comes from tax credits, not direct payouts and when you reduce incentive by increasing taxes you reduce the dollars for R&D. Simple concept except to a liberal.

    In addition people in this country choose their profession and are not going into the medical profession. The incentive to enter the profession does not offset the cost of being in the profession.
    More than that. Teaching hospitals, largely government funded, play ahuge role:

    Discovering Tomorrow’s Cures

    The integration of patient care with the best in medical education and research is the basis for much of what we take for granted in medicine today. As key centers of research, teaching hospitals are responsible for critical medical breakthroughs. From new approaches in prevention and diagnosis to successful treatments and cures, the advances pioneered at these institutions dramatically improve the health of our community. The list of medical firsts that were pioneered at America’s medical schools and teaching hospitals are long and distinguished. To name a few:

    * The development of coronary angioplasty,
    * The first pediatric trauma center
    * The development of artificial skin made from living human cells
    * The first human images with an MRI
    * The first live polio vaccine
    * The first successful bone marrow transplant
    * The first intensive care unit for newborns
    * The first human gene therapy for cystic fibrosis
    * The first successful pediatric heart transplant
    * The first to discover that adult heart diseases begin in childhood

    Your Academic Teaching Hospital — University Medical Center Foundation of El Paso

    The region's teaching hospitals collectively receive about $1.4 billion annually in federal grants, more than any other group of healthcare institutions in the country.

    Funding slowdown worries hospitals - The Boston Globe




    See above, R&D is a huge expense to improve quality. Many medical advances come in the form of incentive tax cuts, not direct dollars.
    No direct dollars in grants at teaching hospitals and not private business.


    The difference is the taxpayer doesn't pay for the increase in bureaucracies you claim are created in private industry. You don't like the price you pay from private business, select another one or don't buy.
    Paying for it is paying for it. And too often real choice is limited. How much competition is there between oil companies? They are large and yet all prices are nearly the same despite large profits for each company. How about insurance companies? Any real difference in cost between companies? When Walmart puts everyone out of business, will costs go up or down?

    Of course you don't, if you put your money into SS and Medicare, don't you EXPECT to get it back?

    Again, you miss the point and ignore the massive increase in bureaucracies to manage those regulations. In your world the means justifies the end which is foolish.
    Don't ignore anything. Those regulations served a real purpose and made things better than they were. bureaucracies are the costs of doing business. The alternative was to have lakes catch fire, eat tainted meat, suffer from poisoned Peanut butter. History shows us buyer beware means someone or something will be hurt without regulations, government involvement. Are you going to ignore that clear history?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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