• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Obama Socialist Health care program....

-Should health care reform include requiring most Americans to buy health insurance?
No. if health care is a right, then I have a right to not exercise that right.
This is no different than requiring people to vote, and fining them if they do not.

We have mandatory car insurance and that seems to work out fine.
This is a requirement necessary to exercise an optional privilege so that people do not financially suffer from the damage you mightr cause.
In that, you are comparing Apples and tuna.

How would you make health care reform work if you didn't require everyone to buy insurance?
Do the exact opposite -- get rid of it and make everyone pay for their health care out-of-pocket. This will drive competition, raise quality and reduce costs.

-Insurance companies would face new federal regulations, such as no denying people for preexisting conditions, but why is that a bad thing?
Forcing coverage for people with pre-existing conditions raises costs.

Would it be such a bad thing that they can't raise an entire state's premiums 30% overnight?
If they cannot raise the premiums for the peopel wit the PEC, they will raise someone elses.

-Medicare is full of waste and fraud, so you would think people would be happy to hear that there are going to be cuts that would force hospitals to be efficient, but I'm hearing complaints.
Cutting funding doesnt force anone to be more efficient -- creatng competition does.

-Medicaid would be expanded to include low income people.
Medicade is already for low-income people, exclusively.

-There will be new taxes on the health care industry among others. But we have to get the money to pay for health care reform from somewhere no matter how we go about it. What other options are available? Why not tax the health care industry?
before this can be discussed, the soundness of the premise of the current 'reform' must be established. This has not been done.

-There are a lot of benefits to this bill. It could reduce the federal deficit. It could eliminate the prescription coverage gap. Ect.
"Could"?
Ok... it "could" raise deficts and it "could" increase the prescription coverage gap.
There. Point countered.

nstead of playing the "government takeover" and "socialism" cards, which have become virtually meaningless given how most people in this thread have used them, why not talk about the specifics and what alternative options are available.
BTDT.
 
Perhaps its because I believe that others should have access to healthcare and that maybe healthcare shouldn't be a luxury that only an elite few should have.
Everyone has access to healthcare.

Healthcare for profit makes ZERO ZERO ZERO sense. It is time for someone to take profit out of the healthcare industry. I don't LOVE this plan, but its a start.

WTF? Who do you think is going to provide your healthcare if no one is going to profit from it? You really think docs are going to spend 100s of thousands of dollars to get a degree so they can work for free?

Profit and competition for that profit drive costs DOWN. It also gives incentive to develop more technology. If you want to see how well the free market works without govt and insurance involvement, just check out the elective/cosmetic surgery market. Ever increasing technology with ever decreasing costs. Go figure.
 
I don't care if your a Republican, Democrat, Conservative, or Liberal The Obama Administration is trying to bankrupt this country with a socialist health care program that will get in your pocket book big time........You retired military guys on Tricare Plus or for Life will lose it or have huge premium increases..Medicare will be cut $500. Mil The deficit will balloon....There is much more......

How is this "socialist", and how do you support your other claims?
 
Profit and competition for that profit drive costs DOWN.

I generally agree, but in this case, costs are going sky-high. Why is that?
 
I generally agree, but in this case, costs are going sky-high. Why is that?
People are insulated from the true costs of their health care by their insurance coverage, which drives up cocts becaus eif the consumer doestn care what the tru costs are, then the person providing the goods and services will raise his prices.

Remove this insulation and costs will fall.
 
I generally agree, but in this case, costs are going sky-high. Why is that?

Because of the govt and insurance. Get them out of the picture, like they are with elective/cosmetic surgeries, and you'll see the massive difference it makes. As I've mentioned numerous times (and have others), the cosmetic industry has ever increasing technology and ever decreasing prices. And, the govt and insurance industries aren't involved with them. Pure free market competition where the PATIENT is the sole purchaser.
 
Last edited:
People are insulated from the true costs of their health care by their insurance coverage, which drives up cocts becaus eif the consumer doestn care what the tru costs are, then the person providing the goods and services will raise his prices.

Remove this insulation and costs will fall.

Because insurance companies don't care what the costs are? This is completely backwards. Insurance companies can actually keep costs lower because they have more bargaining power than all of their consumers individually. Now there is a big difference between that and single payer, where the government can set the price wherever it wants. Because that would be a disaster too. Unsurprisingly, the market does a good job here.
 
Because of the govt and insurance. Get them out of the picture, like they are with elective/cosmetic surgeries, and you'll see the massive difference it makes. As I've mentioned numerous times (and have others), the cosmetic industry has ever increasing technology and ever decreasing prices. And, the govt and insurance industries aren't involved with them. Pure free market competition where the PATIENT is the sole purchaser.

You want to get rid of insurance altogether? What if someone gets really sick and can't afford their bills? I can see them getting out of routine care, but there's a reason for insurance.
 
People are insulated from the true costs of their health care by their insurance coverage, which drives up cocts becaus eif the consumer doestn care what the tru costs are, then the person providing the goods and services will raise his prices.

Remove this insulation and costs will fall.

Really? So insurance companies just pay whatever it costs without care?

No.

This is the free market, NOW. It's driven costs up. You want the government to step in and ban insurance or something? That's not a free market.
 
Because insurance companies don't care what the costs are? This is completely backwards.
Not so much. They obviously care to a degree, but are able to pay more because they have access to money from premiums of people that they dont pay for. Because they can pay more, providers can charge more.
 
You want to get rid of insurance altogether? What if someone gets really sick and can't afford their bills? I can see them getting out of routine care, but there's a reason for insurance.

they make payments, just like they did before insurance came along. Insurance is only there to make the insurance companies money.
 
Over the next 10 years, the healthcare bill will cost $940 billion to reduce the deficit $138 billion. Where do they get the money? Fees and excise taxes.

You realize that means it costs $940, but saves $1,078, for a net savings of $138, right?
 
they make payments, just like they did before insurance came along. Insurance is only there to make the insurance companies money.

Do you understand how insurance works?
 
You realize that means it costs $940, but saves $1,078, for a net savings of $138, right?

No I didn't but that would make for a more effective argument. My bad.
 
Yes, used to work for them.

So why did you say people would just pay providers like they pay insurance companies when the people can't afford their care?

You pay a little to insurance in case you need alot later. Just saying people can pay for their own care is not true. Sometimes they can't. That's the point of insurance.

(It's pretty much socialism, by the way, though completely private and free market).
 
No I didn't but that would make for a more effective argument. My bad.

No problem. The media fail to report it correctly. It's confusing. Then they get debt and deficit mixed up.
 
So why did you say people would just pay providers like they pay insurance companies when the people can't afford their care?

You pay a little to insurance in case you need alot later. Just saying people can pay for their own care is not true. Sometimes they can't. That's the point of insurance.

(It's pretty much socialism, by the way, though completely private and free market).

They can make payments.
 
This is the free market, NOW. It's driven costs up.
Because of the reason I gave you.
It -is- free market now, but in a form that loads to cost increases.

You want the government to step in and ban insurance or something? That's not a free market.
It is in the sense that it eliminates the middleman and puts the customer and the provider directly in touch, allowing for more direct competition and the determination of value of the goods and services provided.
 
They can make payments.

So if someone gets cancer and it costs them half a million to treat, they can make payments on an installment plan for the next 240 years or so?
 
Because of the reason I gave you.
It -is- free market now, but in a form that loads to cost increases.

So the free market can cause prices to go up instead of down.
 
So if someone gets cancer and it costs them half a million to treat, they can make payments on an installment plan for the next 240 years or so?

The costs would be considerably lower without insurance and govt involvement. And then yes, they would have to make payments.
 
Yet....you and your cohorts sat silently while GWB led us to the gutter and to the brink of economic and moral bankruptcy.

If following Obama gets us out of the sewerhole that GWB put this country....then I'm all for it. Perhaps you enjoyed having our country's morals and integrity destroyed by the previous administration....personally, I'll take the road that rebuilds this country.

The irony here is most Reps/Conservatives saw what GWB did as being strictly American. I'm convinced many of them truly had no problem with this nation using strong-arm tactics (re: the Bush Doctrine) to bully its way into being the world's leader. Only it didn't work. Hence, the reason so many (Muslim) nations dislike us today.

Whether you agree with what Pres. Obama did or not, I believe he was right to apologize for this nation's past mis-steps as far as foreign relations are concerned.
 
The costs would be considerably lower without insurance and govt involvement. And then yes, they would have to make payments.

Why?

Everyone could afford health care just fine, even catastrophic care, if only they didn't have insurance?

Really?
 
Back
Top Bottom