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Thread: Obama Socialist Health care program....

  1. #71
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    Re: Obama Socialist Health care program....

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Just look at all the money that the corporate insurance companies are pouring in to try to defeat healthcare reform.....

    THAT should give you a good clue on which party supports large corporate interests and which party wants REAL reform that will help the American people.
    Ah -- the claim of moral high ground.

    The dems arent worried about reform, they're worried about gaining and retaining as much partisan political power as they can.

    Their useful idiots are happy to oblige them.

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    Re: Obama Socialist Health care program....

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    Is there any reason helping provide basic necessities for those who have a hard time managing on their own is a bad thing?
    Obviously.

    It teaches that there are no real consequnces for the bad decisions you make, and is no different that replacing your kids' toys every time they destroy or lose them.

    YOU, not anyone else, are responsible for YOUR bad decisions.

  3. #73
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    Re: Obama Socialist Health care program....

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    An elite few? This is hyperoble born of desperation.
    If there are 30M uninsured in the country -- the number of people The Obama's plan is supposed to cover -- then >270,000,000 people have the luxury of health care.


    Except that profit drives competition, increases quality, lowers cost and incents innovation.
    Socialism has the reverse effect.
    "Healthcare for profit makes ZERO ZERO ZERO sense."

    Thats a pretty asenine statement. I suppose lawyers expecting profit for their services are ****ing satan. Firemen should work for the mere joy of service. Anyone doing ANYTHING for profit is evil.

    Mind you...that 8 year dedication to school, mountain of debt, years of residency...why...NO ONE should expect fair remuneration for their services. And hospitals and drug companies should just eat every cost...

    And the sky should be purple...too...like on THAT planet...

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    Re: Obama Socialist Health care program....

    Why doesn't anyone actually provide some specific arguments for or against the bill? Most of what I have been hearing is just ideology rants. Something that pretty much everyone agrees on is that there needs to be health reform, it's just what shape that health reform takes that people differ on. So why not look at the actual bill that is before us right now, see what changes it is likely to cause, and make some concrete arguments as to whether those changes would be good or bad for America. For example...

    -Should health care reform include requiring most Americans to buy health insurance? If someone uninsured ends up sick and in the emergency room, then the cost is spread out to everyone else anyways, so why is this a bad option? We have mandatory car insurance and that seems to work out fine. And a benefit is that the market will have millions of new customers. How would you make health care reform work if you didn't require everyone to buy insurance?

    -Insurance companies would face new federal regulations, such as no denying people for preexisting conditions, but why is that a bad thing? Would it be such a bad thing that they can't raise an entire state's premiums 30% overnight?

    -Medicare is full of waste and fraud, so you would think people would be happy to hear that there are going to be cuts that would force hospitals to be efficient, but I'm hearing complaints. Why?

    -Medicaid would be expanded to include low income people. Since the public option is off the table, and the private insurers have no interest in serving those who can't afford their service, what other option would there be?

    -There will be new taxes on the health care industry among others. But we have to get the money to pay for health care reform from somewhere no matter how we go about it. What other options are available? Why not tax the health care industry?

    -There are a lot of benefits to this bill. It could reduce the federal deficit. It could eliminate the prescription coverage gap. Ect.

    Instead of playing the "government takeover" and "socialism" cards, which have become virtually meaningless given how most people in this thread have used them, why not talk about the specifics and what alternative options are available. Maybe the fact that this bill is unpopular means that it is the right option for America because it forces everyone to compromise on something.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 03-18-10 at 03:08 PM.

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    Re: Obama Socialist Health care program....

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    -There will be new taxes on the health care industry among others. But we have to get the money to pay for health care reform from somewhere no matter how we go about it. What other options are available? Why not tax the health care industry?

    -There are a lot of benefits to this bill. It could reduce the federal deficit. It could eliminate the prescription coverage gap. Ect.
    Over the next 10 years, the healthcare bill will cost $940 billion to reduce the deficit $138 billion. Where do they get the money? Fees and excise taxes.

  6. #76
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    Re: Obama Socialist Health care program....

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    -Should health care reform include requiring most Americans to buy health insurance?
    No. if health care is a right, then I have a right to not exercise that right.
    This is no different than requiring people to vote, and fining them if they do not.

    We have mandatory car insurance and that seems to work out fine.
    This is a requirement necessary to exercise an optional privilege so that people do not financially suffer from the damage you mightr cause.
    In that, you are comparing Apples and tuna.

    How would you make health care reform work if you didn't require everyone to buy insurance?
    Do the exact opposite -- get rid of it and make everyone pay for their health care out-of-pocket. This will drive competition, raise quality and reduce costs.

    -Insurance companies would face new federal regulations, such as no denying people for preexisting conditions, but why is that a bad thing?
    Forcing coverage for people with pre-existing conditions raises costs.

    Would it be such a bad thing that they can't raise an entire state's premiums 30% overnight?
    If they cannot raise the premiums for the peopel wit the PEC, they will raise someone elses.

    -Medicare is full of waste and fraud, so you would think people would be happy to hear that there are going to be cuts that would force hospitals to be efficient, but I'm hearing complaints.
    Cutting funding doesnt force anone to be more efficient -- creatng competition does.

    -Medicaid would be expanded to include low income people.
    Medicade is already for low-income people, exclusively.

    -There will be new taxes on the health care industry among others. But we have to get the money to pay for health care reform from somewhere no matter how we go about it. What other options are available? Why not tax the health care industry?
    before this can be discussed, the soundness of the premise of the current 'reform' must be established. This has not been done.

    -There are a lot of benefits to this bill. It could reduce the federal deficit. It could eliminate the prescription coverage gap. Ect.
    "Could"?
    Ok... it "could" raise deficts and it "could" increase the prescription coverage gap.
    There. Point countered.

    nstead of playing the "government takeover" and "socialism" cards, which have become virtually meaningless given how most people in this thread have used them, why not talk about the specifics and what alternative options are available.
    BTDT.

  7. #77
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    Re: Obama Socialist Health care program....

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Perhaps its because I believe that others should have access to healthcare and that maybe healthcare shouldn't be a luxury that only an elite few should have.
    Everyone has access to healthcare.

    Healthcare for profit makes ZERO ZERO ZERO sense. It is time for someone to take profit out of the healthcare industry. I don't LOVE this plan, but its a start.
    WTF? Who do you think is going to provide your healthcare if no one is going to profit from it? You really think docs are going to spend 100s of thousands of dollars to get a degree so they can work for free?

    Profit and competition for that profit drive costs DOWN. It also gives incentive to develop more technology. If you want to see how well the free market works without govt and insurance involvement, just check out the elective/cosmetic surgery market. Ever increasing technology with ever decreasing costs. Go figure.

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    Re: Obama Socialist Health care program....

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    I don't care if your a Republican, Democrat, Conservative, or Liberal The Obama Administration is trying to bankrupt this country with a socialist health care program that will get in your pocket book big time........You retired military guys on Tricare Plus or for Life will lose it or have huge premium increases..Medicare will be cut $500. Mil The deficit will balloon....There is much more......
    How is this "socialist", and how do you support your other claims?

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    Re: Obama Socialist Health care program....

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Profit and competition for that profit drive costs DOWN.
    I generally agree, but in this case, costs are going sky-high. Why is that?

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    Re: Obama Socialist Health care program....

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    I generally agree, but in this case, costs are going sky-high. Why is that?
    People are insulated from the true costs of their health care by their insurance coverage, which drives up cocts becaus eif the consumer doestn care what the tru costs are, then the person providing the goods and services will raise his prices.

    Remove this insulation and costs will fall.

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