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Thread: Super Stealth Plane Breaks Through Cost Barrier

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    Super Stealth Plane Breaks Through Cost Barrier

    Super Stealth Plane Breaks Through Cost Barrier | Danger Room | Wired.com

    The Senate Armed Services Committee held a hearing today on the future of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, and things are not looking pretty for the next-generation stealth aircraft. It’s likely the Air Force will have to declare the program has soared past a key cost-containment barrier, in addition to being more than two years behind schedule.

    The Air Force will have to declare a Nunn-McCurdy breach, which could force a serious restructuring of the program, according to a Reuters story quoting Pentagon acquisition chief Ashton Carter.

    A new Government Accountability Office report, issued today, puts it in simple numbers. “Total estimated acquisition costs have increased $46 billion (.pdf) and development extended 2 ˝ years, compared to the program baseline approved in 2007,” the report states.

    Read More Super Stealth Plane Breaks Through Cost Barrier | Danger Room | Wired.com
    As if anybody is surprised at this point.

    We are bleeding so much money in our utterly broken defense acquisitions setup. It seems especially prevalent in the military aircraft industry. Every single new aircraft we try to put out runs way over time allotted and way over cost. The taxpayers are being milked to the bone by these defense contractors, who really have no major incentive to run within the ludicrous "budget" they propose at the start of the program.

    I sometimes wonder if we should just buy planes from Russia like everyone else does.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Super Stealth Plane Breaks Through Cost Barrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Super Stealth Plane Breaks Through Cost Barrier | Danger Room | Wired.com



    As if anybody is surprised at this point.

    We are bleeding so much money in our utterly broken defense acquisitions setup. It seems especially prevalent in the military aircraft industry. Every single new aircraft we try to put out runs way over time allotted and way over cost. The taxpayers are being milked to the bone by these defense contractors, who really have no major incentive to run within the ludicrous "budget" they propose at the start of the program.

    I sometimes wonder if we should just buy planes from Russia like everyone else does.
    The JSF makes sense, since it is a multi role a/c that will replace several different models in the AF/Navy/Marine Corps. Unfortunantley, the F-22 program was a completely un-needed program at the time as it is only available to one service and had a singular purpose(air superiority, of which we already had at the time). If that money had been spent on ground transport aircraft or updating other various aspects of the fleet, it would have been a better return on the investment. Obviously they aren't showing good fiscal restraint for the JSF program itself, which is the directors fault. But the theory of having the same multi-role aircraft across several different branches and streamlining the replaceable parts system to have nearly 85-90% similar parts across the services(3 different models of JSF, with carrier landing equipped landing gear for navy and VSTOL for Marines) is a good idea in the long run.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Super Stealth Plane Breaks Through Cost Barrier

    Moderator's Warning:
    Super Stealth Plane Breaks Through Cost BarrierThread moved from BN-Mainstream media as it does not come from a mainstream media source
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Super Stealth Plane Breaks Through Cost Barrier

    Thanks mods. I swear, I check every time I post which forum the thread is going in, and EVERY TIME I still screw it up.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Super Stealth Plane Breaks Through Cost Barrier

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    The JSF makes sense, since it is a multi role a/c that will replace several different models in the AF/Navy/Marine Corps. Unfortunantley, the F-22 program was a completely un-needed program at the time as it is only available to one service and had a singular purpose(air superiority, of which we already had at the time). If that money had been spent on ground transport aircraft or updating other various aspects of the fleet, it would have been a better return on the investment. Obviously they aren't showing good fiscal restraint for the JSF program itself, which is the directors fault. But the theory of having the same multi-role aircraft across several different branches and streamlining the replaceable parts system to have nearly 85-90% similar parts across the services(3 different models of JSF, with carrier landing equipped landing gear for navy and VSTOL for Marines) is a good idea in the long run.
    The bad idea was actually listening to the manufacturer when they told us the price tag. We're not giving these companies a hard limit to control their spending, "Oh, you're over budget? Here's some more money, keep at it for a while."

    I also think our research should shift to unmanned aircraft. They're far, far cheaper, since you don't have to build such powerful defensive capabilities into them. Nobody cares if the drone gets shot down, so why incorporate the enormous expense that is stealth?

    And drones have proven extremely effective in strike roles. Interface a laser rangefinder with a gps-equipped laptop. Point laser at bad guys, laptop calculates position of target, uploads to drone: "BOMB HERE."

    Drone radios back "By your command." They'd better do it in that voice too.

    Boom.

    As far as air-to-air, drones still need developing to tackle that, but why not just build a glorified RC plane on steroids with a few AIM-120's strapped to it? Make it big and basically built out of balsa wood for all it matters. The point is the cheapest platform that can carry a missile. Who cares if they get shot down? The ordnance is more expensive than the plane!

    Controlled via AWACS crew, perhaps.

    (edit: DARPA, I am looking for a new job...)
    Last edited by Deuce; 03-12-10 at 11:11 PM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Super Stealth Plane Breaks Through Cost Barrier

    This aircraft will NEVER go into production.

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    Re: Super Stealth Plane Breaks Through Cost Barrier

    Yeah it will but by god it is going to cost over $100 million each

    I remember when the F16 was selling for $18-20 million
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    Re: Super Stealth Plane Breaks Through Cost Barrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Super Stealth Plane Breaks Through Cost Barrier | Danger Room | Wired.com



    As if anybody is surprised at this point.

    We are bleeding so much money in our utterly broken defense acquisitions setup. It seems especially prevalent in the military aircraft industry. Every single new aircraft we try to put out runs way over time allotted and way over cost. The taxpayers are being milked to the bone by these defense contractors, who really have no major incentive to run within the ludicrous "budget" they propose at the start of the program.

    I sometimes wonder if we should just buy planes from Russia like everyone else does.
    Part of the problem does originate with the defence industry itself. However, part of the problem lies with the manner in which the military specs this stuff out. They invariably push the "gee wish" factor to the limit, which in turn pushes industry to push the technology envelope.
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    Re: Super Stealth Plane Breaks Through Cost Barrier

    Let's not forget that the government wastes far more money on other things, like failed social programs and pork. Sometimes they simply lose billions and claim not to know where they went...


    1. The Missing $25 Billion

    Buried in the Department of the Treasury’s 2003 Financial Report of the United States Government is a short section titled “Unreconciled Transactions Affecting the Change in Net Position,” which explains that these unreconciled transactions totaled $24.5 billion in 2003.[2]

    The unreconciled transactions are funds for which auditors cannot account: The government knows that $25 billion was spent by someone, somewhere, on something, but auditors do not know who spent it, where it was spent, or on what it was spent. Blaming these unreconciled transactions on the failure of federal agencies to report their expenditures adequately, the Treasury report con*cludes that locating the money is “a priority.”

    It isn't just the Defense Department... at least in the case of the fighter we were getting something useful for the money.

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    Re: Super Stealth Plane Breaks Through Cost Barrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    I also think our research should shift to unmanned aircraft. They're far, far cheaper, since you don't have to build such powerful defensive capabilities into them. Nobody cares if the drone gets shot down, so why incorporate the enormous expense that is stealth?

    And drones have proven extremely effective in strike roles. Interface a laser rangefinder with a gps-equipped laptop. Point laser at bad guys, laptop calculates position of target, uploads to drone: "BOMB HERE."

    Drone radios back "By your command." They'd better do it in that voice too.

    Boom.

    As far as air-to-air, drones still need developing to tackle that, but why not just build a glorified RC plane on steroids with a few AIM-120's strapped to it? Make it big and basically built out of balsa wood for all it matters. The point is the cheapest platform that can carry a missile. Who cares if they get shot down? The ordnance is more expensive than the plane!

    Controlled via AWACS crew, perhaps.

    (edit: DARPA, I am looking for a new job...)
    Although I think the role of unmanned aircraft certainley has room for growth and expansion in certain roles, part of me is uncomfortable in assigning these aircraft to CAS missions on a regular basis. Some amount of flexibility to immediately make changes/decisions needs to rest in the hands and controls of a human at the point of attack, rather than in a AWACs hundreds of miles away or in some computer room back in Florida(or wherever they have them). And for XCAS missions, unmanneds need not even be considered. I'm uncomfortable assigning direct support to our ground troops to a robot.

    Unmanneds have great advantages as you point out. But I don't know that they are appropriate for all mission types.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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