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What Biden Told Netanyahu Behind Closed Doors...

independent_thinker2002 said:
What information do you have that supports this conclusion?
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The information that is out there regarding this incident, the past events and behaviors of the players. Honestly I wont waste my time trying to defend my conclusion when you havent exactly tried to disprove them. What is your opinion, and why do you think I am mistaken?
 
OxymoronP said:
The information that is out there regarding this incident, the past events and behaviors of the players. Honestly I wont waste my time trying to defend my conclusion when you havent exactly tried to disprove them. What is your opinion, and why do you think I am mistaken?
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I am not asking you to defend your conclusion. I'm asking you how you arrived at that conclusion.
 
American said:
This whole thread so far almost looks antisemitic in it's generalization.
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There is certainly no shortage of antisemites at this site.

They have not shown up yet in this thread, though.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
That's fine. Israel is a sovereign nation. In that case, they don't need the almost $3 billion in subsidies that we give them each year. Seems like a fair trade to me. We can screw off, and they can take care of themselves militarily and financially.

But, as long as we are subsidizing them, and our relationship with them is compromising our ability to work with other middle eastern nations, then they shouldn't be telling us to bugger off.

That's just my take.
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I personally wish the US aid to Israel, Egypt, Pakistan, and every other nation would end. The US treasury would have more liquidity, and the ex-recipient nations could no longer be financially threatened or blackmailed. Israel would do okay. Egypt not so good. Pakistan would collapse very quickly.

To make up for this loss, I think Israel should begin marketing/exporting more of its sophisticated cutting-edge technology abroad. If I remember correctly, only the US has more technology stocks listed on the NASDAQ. India, Southeast Asia, and China are huge markets, and they all love innovative high-tech.
 
Captain America said:
It's so typical to use the "anti-semetic" race card anytime some criticizes the GOI. It has become rather boring actually. :yawn:

I am have my own opinions of Israeli politics.

But, due the disproportionate number of semetic moderators on this forum I usually just keep them to myself. Nothing can get you on the bad side quicker here, at Debate Politics, than siding against Israel on any given issue.

That being said, I will pick my own battles. This ain't one of 'em. But I do hope someday that the US will tell Israel, "You're on your own buddy." I think they'd do fine without us. This US unconditional support of their actions, at our expense, has become quite irritating.

Sink or swim.
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Would you please define what a " semetic moderator " is?
 
Tashah said:
I personally wish the US aid to Israel, Egypt, Pakistan, and every other nation would end. The US treasury would have more liquidity, and the ex-recipient nations could no longer be financially threatened or blackmailed. Israel would do okay. Egypt not so good. Pakistan would collapse very quickly.

To make up for this loss, I think Israel should begin marketing/exporting more of its sophisticated cutting-edge technology abroad. If I remember correctly, only the US has more technology stocks listed on the NASDAQ. India, Southeast Asia, and China are huge markets, and they all love innovative high-tech.
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That is one of the reasons the US. sends so much aid to Israel...... we don't want them to be selling that cutting edge tech all over the world, and I suspect that is one of the conditions of that aid.
 
Crunch said:
That is one of the reasons the US. sends so much aid to Israel...... we don't want them to be selling that cutting edge tech all over the world, and I suspect that is one of the conditions of that aid.
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Israel might be better off if they sided with China in the trade arena. Go with the winner. The combination of Israel's technology with China's labor force could be quite strong.

It is clear that the current U.S. administration will continue to throw Israel under the bus and does not care if Israel continues to exist. I think Israel understands this, and will start to do things that are best for them first.
 
Tashah said:
I personally wish the US aid to Israel, Egypt, Pakistan, and every other nation would end. The US treasury would have more liquidity, and the ex-recipient nations could no longer be financially threatened or blackmailed. Israel would do okay. Egypt not so good. Pakistan would collapse very quickly.
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I am really torn by this idea of dropping all foreign aid. It is a mechanism of our soft power in the world and as such is a very useful tool of influence. I do think that once aid is flowing we may not get the behavioral changes we were looking for from the target country. Often the objective seems to be stability which is why we give money to dictatorships and keep them in power (aside: Iraq provides a good case against our pursuit of stability)

This is off the top of my head and I am no expert but here is what it seems to me:

Egypt: We want stability so we accept Mubarak staying in power. I think there are several reasons for this need for stability here including peace with Israel, cornerstone of the Arab world, and stability of the sealane going through the Suez Canal.

Pakistan: We want a stable government developing the country away from the extremists. We want them pursuing the extremists and we want to maintain a somewhat influential relationship with them so we bribe them.

Israel: Not sure as Israel has an advanced economy, but development of the economy is one I would believe. I don't think expanding settlements is one we wish to pay for. I suspect that now that we are in "dangerous" territory vis-a-vis Israel, that changes to the amount of aid may be forthcoming.
 
I wouldn't assume that Politico's quote that "People who heard what Biden said were stunned. “This is starting to get dangerous for us,” Biden castigated his interlocutors. “What you’re doing here undermines the security of our troops who are fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. That endangers us and it endangers regional peace.” is accurate. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Who really knows? Surely, Politico would like us to believe it's true but I am skeptical of this report.

In any event, I think Israel feels that the Obama Administration is not fully behind it as evidenced by their apparent willingness to allow Iran to go nuclear.

Obama's policy in the middle-east is shaping up to be a monumental catastrophe.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
I am not asking you to defend your conclusion. I'm asking you how you arrived at that conclusion.
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Well embarrasing someone you support is rather absurd, embarrasing someone who has the power over you doesnt make sense either. So the Israelis calculate that Obama wont do anything in responce, and this makes him look incapable in arranging any sort of talks. They are using this against him, to undermine his chances of reelection, and at the least undermine his foriegn policy capability.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
That's fine. Israel is a sovereign nation. In that case, they don't need the almost $3 billion in subsidies that we give them each year. Seems like a fair trade to me. We can screw off, and they can take care of themselves militarily and financially.

But, as long as we are subsidizing them, and our relationship with them is compromising our ability to work with other middle eastern nations, then they shouldn't be telling us to bugger off.

That's just my take.
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If $3 billion is all we give them a year, it is a hellaciouly good deal....
They keep the entire Arab population on thier toes....
The middle east nations need to get over themselves & accept Israel as a sovereign state...
In fact, I would support Israel if they took back Gaza, & kicked every 'Palestinian' out of Gaza, the West Bank & the Golan Heights....
The U.S. has it's 'Trail of Tears', this is no different....
They obviously cannot coexist, so one of them has got to go.....;)
 
Partisan said:
Same thing.......:roll:
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No, it's not. There isn't any reasoning to attack or defend. At this point, it's just wild partisan speculation.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
That's fine. Israel is a sovereign nation. In that case, they don't need the almost $3 billion in subsidies that we give them each year. Seems like a fair trade to me. We can screw off, and they can take care of themselves militarily and financially.

But, as long as we are subsidizing them, and our relationship with them is compromising our ability to work with other middle eastern nations, then they shouldn't be telling us to bugger off.

That's just my take.
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Most Americans have little or no idea of how the US financial-aid to Israel is structured. Let's get down to the nitty-gritty and set a few things straight.

In 2009, President Barack Obama signed the 2010 Agreement in regards to the US foreign-aid package to Israel. It is similar to all such Agreements signed by many US presidents. Under the terms of the 2010 Agreement, Israel is mandated to devote 75% of the aid money to purchase military hardware made in the United States. A substantial portion of the aid not tied to military expenditures is in the form of low interest loans which must be repaid. Israel has never defaulted on such loans. These Agreements have always been structured this way. The percentage of the US aid that is mandated to purchasing US armaments is always in the 65%-75% range.

In effect then, most of the US aid to Israel returns to the US economy. It is - for all practical purposes - an indirect government subsidy to the US military-industrial-complex.

There is another catch also. The US government can pick and choose which US weapons platforms and/or munitions Israel can purchase. For example, although Israel can purchase F-16 fighter jets, she cannot purchase the Stealth fighter/bomber. Nor can Israel purchase the largest US made bunker-buster munitions.

There are also rumors of secret-protocols involved in the aid Agreement which neither nation will reveal or discuss. I imagine this is along the lines of forbidding Israel to sell its own highly sophisticated technology to certain nations.

Americans have the perception that US aid money to Israel is a freebie, like a welfare check which can be used for anything at Israeli discretion. It's not. There are many strings attached. In reality, virtually all of this aid money eventually flows back to the US in one form or another.

The US benefits in other ways also. The Mossad provides the US with critical ME intelligence. More so than any other nation. Without this assistance, the CIA would be severely crippled in the ME region. Israel has a surveillance satellite in orbit over Iran. Imagery and data are shared with the US Reconnaissance Office.

Many US military platforms have high-tech Israeli electronic systems and components. Almost all US fighter-jets have the Israeli Litening Pod navigation/targeting system on board. There is a good deal of Israeli technology in the US Patriot Anti-Missile System. The US is allowed to pre-position military assets on Israeli soil and her Navy can dock in Israeli ports. Etc. Etc.

The US/Israeli relationship isn't and has never been a one-way street. Both nations accrue benefits.
 
The amount of wrong details masked as facts surrounding the 4 pages of this thread is simply bizarre.

As if people simply have a guess game and hope to win a prize.
 
Tashah said:
I personally wish the US aid to Israel, Egypt, Pakistan, and every other nation would end. The US treasury would have more liquidity, and the ex-recipient nations could no longer be financially threatened or blackmailed. Israel would do okay. Egypt not so good. Pakistan would collapse very quickly.

To make up for this loss, I think Israel should begin marketing/exporting more of its sophisticated cutting-edge technology abroad. If I remember correctly, only the US has more technology stocks listed on the NASDAQ. India, Southeast Asia, and China are huge markets, and they all love innovative high-tech.
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I'm fine with both of these. I see no reason why we should be sending aid to any of these countries. The only thing is that if we stopped aiding Pakistan, our efforts to wipe out the Taliban and Al Quaeda in both Pakistan and Afghanistan would end. This would leave two destabilized regimes in western Asia, one of whom has access to nuclear weapons. What would be the impact on India?
 
Has anyone else found it telling that Israel has apologized for the timing of the announcement but not the new settlements?

Personally I find Netanyahu an arrogant SOB, and no, it has nothing to do with him being a Jew.

Israel reaps what is sows but please don't drag the U.S. along. After all they were the forefathers of using terrorism with bombs to get what you want.
 
EnigmaO01 said:
Has anyone else found it telling that Israel has apologized for the timing of the announcement but not the new settlements?

Personally I find Netanyahu an arrogant SOB, and no, it has nothing to do with him being a Jew.

Israel reaps what is sows but please don't drag the U.S. along. After all they were the forefathers of using terrorism with bombs to get what you want.
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An example above for post #41 in this thread.
 
Apocalypse said:
An example above for post #41 in this thread.
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[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing]King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
EnigmaO01 said:
King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Was that the act of Israeli citizens?
Really?
Before Israel's existent?

And were the above people the first terrorists?
Really?
I could swear that at least the Palestinian Arab terrorism came over two decades before that attack.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Palestine_riots]1920 Palestine riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots]Jaffa riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Just goes to show how such opinions are nothing but the direct cause of the lack of knowledge.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
I'm fine with both of these. I see no reason why we should be sending aid to any of these countries.
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According to your assumption of nil value, numerous US presidents (D/R) along with both houses of Congress (D/R/I) have been making the same foreign-aid mistake for decades. Possible I suppose, but highly improbable.

The US isn't being stupidly magnanimous. Different benefits accrue to America in each different venue. The foreign-aid to Egypt keeps the Mubarak regime in power. In return, Egypt does political and material favors for the US. Do you imagine that some CIA renditions wound up in Egypt by accident?

Catz Part Deux said:
The only thing is that if we stopped aiding Pakistan, our efforts to wipe out the Taliban and Al Quaeda in both Pakistan and Afghanistan would end. This would leave two destabilized regimes in western Asia, one of whom has access to nuclear weapons.
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Pakistan's nuclear weapons. Glad you mentioned that. Were you aware that Pakistan laundered US aid funds and funneled the skimmed monies into its National Atomic Agency and Khan Industries? Nevertheless, the US is still sending substantial aid to Pakistan? Why? Because as in all cases, it highly benefits the US either in the short-term or the long-term view.

In the case of Pakistan, US aid is indeed a true subsidy. Without it, the country would quickly go bankrupt and Pakistan would totally collapse within months, if that long.
 
Apocalypse said:
Was that the act of Israeli citizens?
Really?
Before Israel's existent?

And were the above people the first terrorists?
Really?
I could swear that at least the Palestinian Arab terrorism came over two decades before that attack.

1920 Palestine riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jaffa riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just goes to show how such opinions are nothing but the direct cause of the lack of knowledge.
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Aren't you the one that thinks the Israeli military could misidentify an American ship complete with American flag flying? I rest my case.
 
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EnigmaO01 said:
Aren't you the one that thinks the Israeli navy could misidentify an American ship complete with American flag flying? I rest my case.
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Moderator's Warning:
Stop trolling. Address the topic or depart.
 
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