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Thread: What Biden Told Netanyahu Behind Closed Doors...

  1. #71
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    Re: What Biden Told Netanyahu Behind Closed Doors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I'm pretty sure he's referring to this
    I simply am not capable of, no matter how hard I'll try, understanding how you've gotten it wrong when he was even given a reference to what he was talking about, the King David hotel bombing.
    Sicarii: First Century Terrorists

    And, the zealots didn't just kill "politically active figures." They killed civilians.
    From your link:
    "Although they were not terrorists in the modern sense"

    And yes, they have indeed killed politically active figures, not simply your daily innocent.
    Read your own article, it clearly states their target and would enrich your knowledge on them by far.

    Now, to the actual reason why I've called your opinion a naive one - is because it was claiming that the Zealots, the organization that - as your own article states - opposed the Romans in the land, and has targeted Roman political and military officials - was the first sign of terrorism to exist in the entire of humanity.

    That is very naive because even if we do consider the act of guerrilla warfare assassinations as terrorism, the Zealots did certainly not come before the Romans themselves, who have slaughtered entire villages when they have conquered them.

    Or perhaps the Persian empire, the Babylonian and Assyrian empire, and every actual military force that has existed in ancient times.

    There is no doubt here that this argument has no water to stand by, and it would be more effective to argue that the sun is made out of German poop.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: What Biden Told Netanyahu Behind Closed Doors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I have no problem with Israel being a sovereign state. If that's the case, however, you should stop accepting our aid dollars.
    And Israel would cease to be enforced by the agreement to buy American weapons, unfortunately damaging the American military industry.

    I have already stated - as you must know since you've thanked that post - that I have neutral with a leaning towards positive opinion on the ending of the Israeli-American financial treaty.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: What Biden Told Netanyahu Behind Closed Doors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    And Israel would cease to be enforced by the agreement to buy American weapons, unfortunately damaging the American military industry.

    I have already stated - as you must know since you've thanked that post - that I have neutral with a leaning towards positive opinion on the ending of the Israeli-American financial treaty.
    see, the thing is...I'm not a shill for our military industrial complex. So, I'm not particularly worried about losing Israel as a customer.

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    Re: What Biden Told Netanyahu Behind Closed Doors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    It does, however, come with strings. It's a tool to leverage other countries to do what we want them to do.
    No disagreement. Foreign aid is a tool for advancing a nation's interests, because it provides a degree of leverage/incentive for the recipients. However, it does not grant license for coercion nor does it obligate capitulation.

    If Israel becomes intransigent, it could be removed.
    Foreign aid is not an entitlement. So, for whatever the reason might be, a sovereign state has the freedom to choose for itself what aid it will/won't provide, to whom, etc. However, a sovereign state has to be careful not to engage in a volatile policy. If it does that, it loses reliability. When that happens, such a state finds it difficult to gain partners/cooperation, even when it has a need for partners/cooperation.

    Every sovereign state also has critical interests. No sovereign state can realistically expect:

    1) That all of its interests will be shared by all other sovereign states. A classic case that is unfolding is that the threat posed by a nuclear-armed Iran differs when it comes to the U.S., China, and Russia. U.S. interests would be placed at greater risk than those of China or Russia. At the same time, the economic costs of additional sanctions would be higher for China and Russia than for the U.S., which currently conducts very little trade with Iran. Hence, those three states have substantive differences that mirror their interests/risk exposure when it comes to the impact of possible measures aimed at reducing the prospect of Iran's attaining a nuclear weapons capability.

    2) That another sovereign state would abandon its critical interests to serve the policy aims of another. The price for doing so would be steep. Mere promises of support or pledges of solidarity wouldn't even begin to cut the muster. Concrete measures would need to be taken to compensate a state for its relinquishing a critical interest, and most critical interests are off limits. In the context of the situation concerning Israel, specifically its new demand that Israel release hundreds of Palestinian prisoners as a "good faith" measure, the U.S. has made no binding commitments of any kind that it would compensate Israel for any harm such a prisoner release would cause or that it would punish the Palestinians (e.g., drastically reduce aid) should they fail to reciprocate with concessions of their own on matters that are important to Israel.

    3) That its mere words of support/friendship are credible. Credibility is developed over time from a record of reliability. Words of support/friendship, particularly after a state has tried to break an ally ring hollow. Friends can express strong disagreement over policies. They do not cross the line where they try to impose outcomes on their friends.

    If a nation is seen as unreliable, its perceived lack of reliability harms its ability to conduct business with other states. If, for example, the U.S. is seen being unreliable with respect to some of its closest allies i.e., Israel (over the bad timing of a housing plan announcement) or toward the United Kingdom (Falklands issue) with both of whom it has enormous shared interests, why should states such as Russia or China with which the U.S. has fewer shared interests go out of their way to accommodate U.S. needs?

    No nation is willing to take risks or make sacrifices for another state when that state's willingness to reciprocate is called into question, as would happen when such states act unreliably toward their closest allies. When such a state is unreliable with respect to countries with which it has only peripheral interests, the fallout is minimal. But when it is seen as unreliable toward close allies with whom it has numerous important shared interests, that situation raises red flags.

    You know, in ancient Rome, a politician was considered honest if, when bought, he stayed bought. Israel has been bought, and should remember that.
    Countries aren't bought. Any state that views foreign aid as "buying" the loyalty of another sovereign state, much less at the expense of the recipient's own key interests, lacks a fundamental understanding of foreign policy. Such a state is bound to be disappointed and surprised time and again when the sovereign state refuses to capitulate on its own critical interests. Such a state is bound to wind up wasting money and finding it difficult to gain the cooperation of other states who seek to minimize risks by maintaining an arms-length relationship.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 03-15-10 at 03:45 PM.

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    Re: What Biden Told Netanyahu Behind Closed Doors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    see, the thing is...I'm not a shill for our military industrial complex. So, I'm not particularly worried about losing Israel as a customer.
    Fortunately you represent an opinion, and not an entire nation.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: What Biden Told Netanyahu Behind Closed Doors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Fortunately you represent an opinion, and not an entire nation.
    I think you'd be surprised how public opinion is starting to shift re: Israel. Obama is not an anomaly.

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    Re: What Biden Told Netanyahu Behind Closed Doors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I think you'd be surprised how public opinion is starting to shift re: Israel. Obama is not an anomaly.
    On this one you are correct. The left wing of the domocratic party is very anti-Israel and has been for awhile. That is one of the reasons Obama was elected.

    Israel should not feel obliged to stay in the camp of the U.S. and look to strike relationships with nations who will be the powers of the 21st century. The leadership in America is amoral and will sell israel down the river for a barrel of oil, or a vote in congress.

    Israel is a technology powerhouse that countries like Russia and china would want to tap into.

    I hope Israel does not get swept away in the sentiment of a 60 year relationship and not recognize current realities.

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    Re: What Biden Told Netanyahu Behind Closed Doors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I think you'd be surprised how public opinion is starting to shift re: Israel. Obama is not an anomaly.
    I think you'd be more surprised to realize that this shift is not as big as you'd expect, and that Israel would still be favorable among Americans.

    Obama himself is losing support from his own people, and not only from the Israelis.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: What Biden Told Netanyahu Behind Closed Doors...

    It seems Obama and company are harder on Israel than he is on the Iranians or Kim Jung. I'm sure the Iranians are in silent glee over all of this. Obama was super-critical of Bush for, allegedly, taking his eye off the proverbial ball by not focusing on Afghanistan. It seems Obama is doing the same by crucifying Israel while Iran openly and defiantly builds its cache of nuclear weapons. Obama's middle-east dealings are shaping up to be a catastrophic failure.

    Is it November, 2012 yet?

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    Re: What Biden Told Netanyahu Behind Closed Doors...

    When does Biden get around to telling Irans foreign minister that their actions in Iraq and Afgahnistan have killed US troops?
    Someone told me once that there's a right and wrong,
    and that punishment would come to those who dare to cross the line. - TooL

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