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Thread: Kucinich willing to cast the vote that kills health reform

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    Re: Kucinich willing to cast the vote that kills health reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom View Post
    *cough* PUBLIC OPTION NOW
    Who do you think the public option would cover?

    It's almost to the point that I'm hoping they pass a public option, just so they can suffer the inevitable backlash when 96% of people find out they're ineligible.
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    Re: Kucinich willing to cast the vote that kills health reform

    Watch Kucinich defend his position here.

    I wanted to call in and complain to him that perfectionists like him will get 45,000 Americans dead before their time this year. And, next year, And, the year after next. Etc.

    God save us from idealists in the Congress on both sides!
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

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    Re: Kucinich willing to cast the vote that kills health reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Watch Kucinich defend his position here.

    I wanted to call in and complain to him that perfectionists like him will get 45,000 Americans dead before their time this year. And, next year, And, the year after next. Etc.

    God save us from idealists in the Congress on both sides!
    Did you miss the past 30 posts where we discussed how that 45,000 number is bull****?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Kucinich willing to cast the vote that kills health reform

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Did you miss the past 30 posts where we discussed how that 45,000 number is bull****?
    Bull****? You state it as fact? Yet, the article you cite actually doesn't go that far; e.g., “The possibility that no one risks death by going without health insurance may be startling, but some research supports it.”¹ It's just a possibility, not a fact fully established. The article challenges a peer reviewed analysis of mortality associated to the gaps in insurance coverage among the American public and calls for more research, i.e., delay. I fundamentally disagree: delay is not the right prescription for what ails the American health care system today.

    At least, Kucinich thinks immediate action is required; he just doesn't think the current bill which, admittedly, gives the current, flawed, private insurance industry even more business is the way to go. No argument there, except the alternative is worse: no action whatsoever, effectively the Republican option.

    Really, the only argument I have with Kucinich is, is no-action better than imperfect-action. The answer is no, some action is necessary and necessary now. I support the current bill and look forward to its passage.
    Last edited by Chappy; 03-14-10 at 08:57 PM.
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

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    Re: Kucinich willing to cast the vote that kills health reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Bull****? You state it as fact? Yet, the article you cite actually doesn't go that far; e.g., “The possibility that no one risks death by going without health insurance may be startling, but some research supports it.”¹ It's just a possibility, not a fact fully established. The article challenges a peer reviewed analysis of mortality associated to the gaps in insurance coverage among the American public and calls for more research, i.e., delay. I fundamentally disagree: delay is not the right prescription for what ails the American health care system today.
    The study claiming 45,000 is substantially flawed, as the article notes. Even the other studies claiming 10 or 20k have the same flaws. The largest and best-conducted survey claiming no difference.

    Despite that, I'm not claiming that zero is the factually true number, as it would be foolish to do so. You're claiming that 45,000 is true. See the problem with that?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Kucinich willing to cast the vote that kills health reform

    Of course the burden for you is, if in fact some people do die for a lack of health insurance, then, what number is ‘acceptable’ before a change must be made. One life? Two? A hundred? A thousand?
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

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    Re: Kucinich willing to cast the vote that kills health reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Of course the burden for you is, if in fact some people do die for a lack of health insurance, then, what number is ‘acceptable’ before a change must be made. One life? Two? A hundred? A thousand?
    Depends on what the cost of such a change would be compared to how many people would be saved. It's basic cost effectiveness.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Kucinich willing to cast the vote that kills health reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom View Post
    *cough* PUBLIC OPTION NOW
    *cough**cough* Universal Health Care *cough**cough*

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    Re: Kucinich willing to cast the vote that kills health reform

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    What does the question of whether a program is funded via general revenues have to do with the question of how much money it funnels to an industry? It's entirely irrelevant to whether the program is a "giveaway."
    That makes it an unfunded giveaway. Which is probably how I should have stated it since the conversation I was having with CriticalThought was about funding.

    Why on earth would they remove one of the last few "cost containment" provisions in the bill? Unless progressives pick up another 50 seats and win the presidency, I don't see it happening.
    Because it's not really "cost containment" if there is no competition to go along with the mandate.

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    Re: Kucinich willing to cast the vote that kills health reform

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Depends on what the cost of such a change would be compared to how many people would be saved. It's basic cost effectiveness.
    I'll save this exchange in case I ever see you use the argument against rationing.

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