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Israel-Palestine Talks Run Into Brick Wall

This is simple nonsense on your part; it illustrates a willful attempt to misunderstand the points put to you for the sole purpose of not having to admit that the terrorists, not the Israelis, are responsible for the 'murder' of the 'innocent' civllians in Gaza.

-Every- civilian that died while a terrorist hid among them was 'murdered' by the terrorists, not the Israelis.
Hamas shot the civilians? That seems...rather stupid. Angry Palestinians are Hamas' recruitment pool, if you start shooting unarmed Palestinians, your recruitment pool is not going to want to join you.
 
Hamas shot the civilians?
Your deliberate obtuseness is noted. Allow me to be very clear:

Hamas placed their positions among the civilians, knowing that those civilians would die when the Israelis attacked said positions; when Israeli ordnance hit the Hamas positions, civilians died as a result, just as Hamas hoped they would.

Thus, the fault for the civilian deaths falls to Hamas, not the Israelis.

Why do you refuse to blame the terrorists for these deaths?

Angry Palestinians are Hamas' recruitment pool, if you start shooting unarmed Palestinians, your recruitment pool is not going to want to join you
Unless the people in question are too stupid to see that Hamas is using them and their lives for PR -- which, by all appearances, is the case.
 
Your deliberate obtuseness is noted. Allow me to be very clear:

Hamas placed their positions among the civilians, knowing that those civilians would die when the Israelis attacked said positions; when Israeli ordnance hit the Hamas positions, civilians died as a result, just as Hamas hoped they would.

Thus, the fault for the civilian deaths falls to Hamas, not the Israelis.

Why do you refuse to blame the terrorists for these deaths?
Because Israel has been in the business of fighting terrorism for decades, long enough to know that a frontal ground assault on a civilian area that contains terrorists is more liable to end up with twice the number of civilians killed as terrorists. The entire situation looks, to me, to be a case of Israel wanting revenge rather than security because they know damn well that is not the way to create security.

Low-balling civilian casualty figures, firing on UN buildings and convoys as well as schools with children in them, use of restricted arms in a civilian area, this is not making me want to pat Israel on the back.

On top it all, it didnt even ****ing work. Hamas rocket attacks are STILL going on, stronger and more numerous than ever.
 
Because Israel has been in the business of fighting terrorism for decades, long enough to know that a frontal ground assault on a civilian area that contains terrorists is more liable to end up with twice the number of civilians killed as terrorists.
As the terrorists are deliberately hiding among the civilians, then the civilian deaths are the fault of the terrorists. Your excuse is thus meaningless, and the question remains:

Why do you refuse to blame the terrorists for these deaths?

The REAL answer is quite simple - you dont -really- care about the Palestinian civilains, you just want to blame Israel for everything, and cheer every time the Israelis kill a human shiied, as it gives you more material to that end.

Like the terrorists, you see Palestinain civilians as mere pawns.

The entire situation looks, to me, to be a case of Israel wanting revenge rather than security because they know damn well that is not the way to create security.
Yes, but you dont know what you're talking about, as you have illustrated quite plainly.
 
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As the terrorists are deliberately hiding among the civilians, then the civilian deaths are the fault of the terrorists. Your excuse is thus meaningless, and the question remains:

Why do you refuse to blame the terrorists for these deaths?

You dont -really- care about the Palestinian civilains, you just want to blame Israel for everything, and cheer every time the Israelis kill a human shiied, as it gives you more material to that end.

Like the terrorists, you see Palestinain civilians as mere pawns.
Insult me and get my motives wrong all you want, it still doesnt change how badly this looks like revenge rather than a security operation.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Last warning folks. CEASE WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACKS NOW! Any further personal attacks will result in infractions and thread bans.
 
Insult me and get my motives wrong all you want....
Oh, no -- I haven't gotten your motives wong at all.

The fact that you refuse to place the blame for the deaths of human shields on those that use those human shields proves everything.
 
Oh, no -- I haven't gotten your motives wong at all.

The fact that you refuse to place the blame for the deaths of human shields on those that use those human shields proves everything.
Again I had assumed that you understood I dont support Hamas, I also dont support Israel at this point. Simply because I'm not following up my criticisms of Israel's actions with an equal measure of criticism for Hamas doesnt mean that I somehow support Hamas.
 
Again I had assumed that you understood I dont support Hamas...
You refuse to hold them responsible for the deaths of theur human shields, and instead blame their opponent.
That's support.
 
You refuse to hold them responsible for the deaths of theur human shields, and instead blame their opponent.
That's support.
Are you going to ignore what I say when it doesnt fit in your mold or do you plan on addressing my entire statement?
 
Are you going to ignore what I say when it doesnt fit in your mold or do you plan on addressing my entire statement?
Your claiming that you do not suppot Hamas means nothing, given that you have done nothing but do so, in that you continually and flatly refuse to hold them responsible for the deaths of their human shields, and instead blame, wholesale, their opponent for those deaths.
 
What tenet or particular part of 'international law' forbids settling land that you won in a war you did not start - especially once the state that lost the land officially ceded it away?

I ask because there are a great number of Germans that would like to see the whole of Prussia restored.

Notice how this went unanswered.

I also have little patience for this argument. I live in a country that was illegally colonized from 1946-1949 if you use the same standard used against Israel in the West Bank. No one said or did anything to oppose this.
 
What tenet or particular part of 'international law' forbids settling land that you won in a war you did not start - especially once the state that lost the land officially ceded it away?
DECLARATION ON PRINCIPLES OF INTERNATIONAL LAW FRIENDLY RELATIONS AND CO

International law is clear that territorial integrity is not affected by whichever side was the aggressor. The acquisition of territory by the use of force, regardless if self-defensive, will always be invalid. As such, Israel annexed East Jerusalem, a move not recognized by anyone. Hence why it has the same status as the West Bank: occupied.

And what state ceded the land away? Jordan? Jordan relinquished its occupation of the West Bank to the PLO.
I ask because there are a great number of Germans that would like to see the whole of Prussia restored.
Yeah, that's not dishonest... Reference a time when customary international law hadn't even been formulated. In case you forgot, it took two world wars to create a international organization that respects territorial integrity.
 
Notice how this went unanswered.

I also have little patience for this argument. I live in a country that was illegally colonized from 1946-1949 if you use the same standard used against Israel in the West Bank. No one said or did anything to oppose this.

So why blame us?

Or are you mad the Palestinians are actually opposing something illegal?
 
On top it all, it didnt even ****ing work. Hamas rocket attacks are STILL going on, stronger and more numerous than ever.
Are you deliberately lying?

We've already done the comparison between 210 rockets in 20 days before the operation and 5 rockets in 30 days after the operation.

And how many rockets have fell on Israel in the last month?
Zero.
 
So why blame us?

Or are you mad the Palestinians are actually opposing something illegal?

The Palestinians would have a heck of a lot more credibility if they weren't using violence to oppose what they believe to be illegal.

The International Community would have a heck of a lot more credibility if they would apply what they perceive to be international law by being more consistant in calling out violators of it.
 
Yeah, that's not dishonest... Reference a time when customary international law hadn't even been formulated. In case you forgot, it took two world wars to create a international organization that respects territorial integrity.

What the heck are YOU talking about? Customary international law has been evolving for thousands of years. As for respecting territorial integrity, international law has respected that since the days of Hugo Grotius. One principle of customary international law that has been in place for at least two hundred years if the necessity for a treaty to be properly signed and ratified for the transfer of territory from one state to another.

Having said that, I would like to see a little consistency from you and others regarding the interpretation and defense of such rules and laws.
 
The Vice President of the USA visits to further the peace process, and the day before he arrives, Israel announces the building approval of a further 114 illegal houses in the occupied West Bank. Another brick wall hit.
Now you know who the brick wall is.
 
The Palestinians would have a heck of a lot more credibility if they weren't using violence to oppose what they believe to be illegal.
It's not what they believe to be illegal. They oppose something that is illegal, and for some odd reason, you have a problem with that.
The International Community would have a heck of a lot more credibility if they would apply what they perceive to be international law by being more consistant in calling out violators of it.
Well you can thank the Western Powers for creating the Security Council system that ensures superpowers stay in charge.
 
It's not what they believe to be illegal. They oppose something that is illegal, and for some odd reason, you have a problem with that.

I have some trouble with it, yes, but considering what these neighbors of theirs are doing, I am willing to grant them some leeway. Again, living in a country that was similarly colonized to the silence of the international community, I am not exactly sympathetic.

Well you can thank the Western Powers for creating the Security Council system that ensures superpowers stay in charge.

I didn't know the USSR and China were "Western Powers".
 
It's not what they believe to be illegal. They oppose something that is illegal, and for some odd reason, you have a problem with that.

The status of East Jerusalem, like all other final settlement issues, will only be resolved in negotiations. The Palestinians have their negotiating position. Israel has its. Both parties have needs in East Jerusalem and, as a result, I suspect some kind of compromise (probably a joint sovereignty concept or status on various holy sites) will be required to accommodate their core needs. Neither party will achieve its maximum demands.

Moreover, under international law, neither party is entitled to its maximum demands. The reflexive argument made by some that the Palestinians are entitled to all of East Jerusalem has no more basis in fact under international law than the automatic position that Israel is entitled to all of East Jerusalem. The reality is that the final status of all boundaries (including those associated with Jerusalem) remained to be resolved following the 1948 war. The 1949 armistice agreements that left East Jerusalem in the possession of Jordan following that war did not confer upon Jordan and, by extension the Palestinians in the future via Jordan's transferring its claims over the West Bank, etc., to the Palestinians, the right to retain that area that Jordan had won in the war. Otherwise, if Jordan's territorial gains during the 1948 war conferred upon Jordan/the Palestinians automatic territorial legitimacy over East Jerusalem, Israel's gaining that territory in the 1967 war would have had the same effect under identical principles applied consistently. That is not the case.

Of course, from the practical perspective, possession is a consideration that cannot be ignored completely. It does matter in that it shapes the contours of what is possible e.g., negotiating positions and practicalities as to changes that might occur given power realities among other factors that provide negotiating leverage.

Nevertheless, the larger principle that final boundaries, including those that pertain to East Jerusalem, are to be resolved in negotiations remains paramount. It will be the agreed outcome of negotiations that supplies legitimacy to the resolution of the historic dispute. Outside parties will not be able to dictate/impose terms that ignore the needs of either party to the historic dispute, though they could offer guidance and suggestions. The parties to the conflict will have to resolve the issues on their own and both sides will need to compromise so as to accommodate the core needs of the other if agreement is to be reached.
 
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The status of East Jerusalem, like all other final settlement issues, will only be resolved in negotiations. The Palestinians have their negotiating position. Israel has its. Both parties have needs in East Jerusalem and, as a result, I suspect some kind of compromise (probably a joint sovereignty concept or status on various holy sites) will be required to accommodate their core needs. Neither party will achieve its maximum demands.

Moreover, under international law, neither party is entitled to its maximum demands. The reflexive argument made by some that the Palestinians are entitled to all of East Jerusalem has no more basis in fact under international law than the automatic position that Israel is entitled to all of East Jerusalem. The reality is that the final status of all boundaries (including those associated with Jerusalem) remained to be resolved following the 1948 war. The 1949 armistice agreements that left East Jerusalem in the possession of Jordan following that war did not confer upon Jordan and, by extension the Palestinians in the future via Jordan's transferring its claims over the West Bank, etc., to the Palestinians, the right to retain that area that Jordan had won in the war. Otherwise, if Jordan's territorial gains during the 1948 war conferred upon Jordan/the Palestinians automatic territorial legitimacy over East Jerusalem, Israel's gaining that territory in the 1967 war would have had the same effect under identical principles applied consistently. That is not the case.

Of course, from the practical perspective, possession is a consideration that cannot be ignored completely. It does matter in that it shapes the contours of what is possible e.g., negotiating positions and practicalities as to changes that might occur given power realities among other factors that provide negotiating leverage.

Nevertheless, the larger principle that final boundaries, including those that pertain to East Jerusalem, are to be resolved in negotiations remains paramount. It will be the agreed outcome of negotiations that supplies legitimacy to the resolution of the historic dispute. Outside parties will not be able to dictate/impose terms that ignore the needs of either party to the historic dispute, though they could offer guidance and suggestions. The parties to the conflict will have to resolve the issues on their own and both sides will need to compromise so as to accommodate the core needs of the other if agreement is to be reached.

Really, Don, you're too kind to these people. The fact of the matter is that the Palestinian people have allowed a bigoted terrorist organization to dictate policy, which means they are not actually interested in peace, which means Israel shouldn't have to justify itself to the world when it refuses the terms of said bigots or attacks said bigots.

The terrorist apologia is to be expected from the useful idiots on the far left.
 
Except that that protection comes off our dime. The US pours billions into Israel's military. Without US backing, Israel would probably be flattened in a month.
:rofl

Flattened in a month? By whom? What did Syria do when the IAF destroyed its secret nuclear reactor in 2007? Not a damn thing. What did the Sudanese do when the IAF destroyed a Hamas/Iran weapons convoy in Sudan last year? Nothing. Did you know that Israeli warships and submarines are now traversing the Suez Canal in Egypt?

Lol. The Syrians and the Sudanese and the Egyptians are obviously all a lot brighter than you are.
 
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