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Thread: Israel-Palestine Talks Run Into Brick Wall

  1. #21
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    Re: Israel-Palestine Talks Run Into Brick Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Are Palestinian civilians being deliberately targeted under IDF orders?
    Absolutely no.
    A thousand dead, five thousand wounded, could've ****ing fooled me.

    Which is why there are holes within the international law that surround this conflict.
    The Gazan government, the terrorist organization of Hamas, launches rockets at Israeli civilians from civilian complexes and buildings.
    That officially makes it a military zone, but civilians still live there.
    There's no bloody holes, Gaza is a civilian area which means it's against international law to use weapons like this.

    Yes, the IDF's weapons have caused civilians deaths, and so did NATO's weapons, so did any other Western army's weapons really.
    Israel is not unique in this case, and the Israeli right to self defense is definitely existent and undeniable.
    Yes because unarmed civilians pose so much of a threat to the IDF. Defense is one thing, revenge is quite another.

    Actually it does, even though the IDF figures point at 295 civilians killed, around 900 is also considered to be very low when considering the number of bombs dropped in the area.
    Were I referring to the specific report's inaccuracy I would gladly take the time to review it for you.
    I was merely speaking on the fact that you've chosen al-Jazeera as your source over other sources.
    Can you provide me proof that Al-Jazeera English is skewed or seriously biased?

    Where militants target Israeli civilians from.
    And how, again, does this justify attacking civilians, UN convoys, and UN buildings?

    Frequently?
    During the operation there was only one major hit on a UN facility.
    I remind you that the Gaza Strip is one of the biggest host of UN facilities.
    It shouldnt have happened at all, if the IDF is a professional army why were they attacking schools, civilian supply lines, UN supply depots for civilians, and other UN facilities.

    Civilians and UN personnel were not targeted.
    They were hit, as a result of being in a war-zone.
    Obviously not because of their fault, but because of the ones who've made it a war zone, the terrorist organization of Hamas.
    How in the name of hell do you accidentally hit over a thousand civilians and half a dozen UN structures?

    The terrorists pick the zone where they'll launch a rocket or attack Israel from, it's not like Israel simply drops a bomb on a convoy because it hates the UN or whatever you're trying to draw here.
    My point is that Israel's invasion seems more like a stab at revenge, not security.
    I'm Done

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  2. #22
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    Re: Israel-Palestine Talks Run Into Brick Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    A thousand dead, five thousand wounded, could've ****ing fooled me.
    And?
    Are hundreds of thousands not dying in Afghanistan and Iraq?
    And again, IDF figures point at 295 deaths.
    There's no bloody holes, Gaza is a civilian area which means it's against international law to use weapons like this.
    I can only point you to re-read the phrase you were commenting on with a statement like this.
    When militants launch attacks from an area, it's a military zone.
    Do you somehow pretend that Israelis have no right to self defense as long as their attackers do this from a complex of buildings?
    Because that would expose your argument's biggest weakness.
    Yes because unarmed civilians pose so much of a threat to the IDF. Defense is one thing, revenge is quite another.
    Unarmed civilians were not targeted.
    Militants were.
    Can you provide me proof that Al-Jazeera English is skewed or seriously biased?
    I do not think I need to bring proof to point at the obvious, but yeah why not.
    Lebanon elite turns out to celebrate terrorist Samir Kuntar's engagement - Haaretz - Israel News
    And how, again, does this justify attacking civilians, UN convoys, and UN buildings?
    None of the above were targeted.
    It shouldnt have happened at all, if the IDF is a professional army why were they attacking
    Mistakes happen all the time, especially during wars on terrorist organizations that hide in civilian areas.
    Read on NATO's operations for a better understanding, the understanding that you're obviously lacking when you blame the IDF with the targeting of civilians without being able to explain the dropping of leaflets, the phoning to homes and the 3 hours of humanitarian time.
    How in the name of hell do you accidentally hit over a thousand civilians and half a dozen UN structures?
    295 according to IDF figures, and it happens, quite logically, when you are engaging in a war with an organization hiding in a dense civilian populated area.
    My point is that Israel's invasion seems more like a stab at revenge, not security.
    Then it only seems to you so, as this is purely an act of self-defense and is completely legitimate.
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    Re: Israel-Palestine Talks Run Into Brick Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Then first of all you're ultimately wrong even in your own realm of truth, since statistics show that the situation before operation Cast Lead(hundreds of rockets per week) and the situation after operation Cast Lead(1 rocket per month) are incomparable.

    Secondly, white phosphorous is not banned, that's hiding half the truth, it is completely allowed in non-civilian areas.
    It's also one of the poorest ways to try and kill an individual, it's a slowly moving source of heat and light, and the only reason why it's banned in civilian areas is because it cannot be used in a discriminating way.
    It would be way more effective, of course, to simply drop a half-ton bomb was there ever an intent to do harm to civilians.

    And finally, the IDF has had no intentions in attacking civilians, nor would it have gained any of its interest by killing civilians, and rather the contrary is true.
    The dropping of leaflets, phoning to homes, and three hours of humanitarian aid during every day in the operation were all meant to minimize the civilians lost lives.

    I have no doubt that a person who chooses to post an al-Jazeera report instead of referring to a moderate non-biased source would not take a change of heart in his opinions, and hence I am effectively wasting my time here, but do realize that I would not avoid giving the real version of the truth when confronted with false statements.
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    Re: Israel-Palestine Talks Run Into Brick Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    A thousand dead, five thousand wounded, could've ****ing fooled me.
    Yeah, but that doesnt mean much.
    When you target the weapons that are deliberately hidden among civilians, civilian casualties will be high. This is the fault of those who place the weapons, not those that attack the weapons.
    Why dont you see this?
    There's no bloody holes, Gaza is a civilian area which means it's against international law to use weapons like this.
    Not all of Gaza is a 'civilian area', and the use of WP is only against 'international law' in limited circumstances. That there may be civilians around when it is used does not necessarily qualify.

    Never mind that the presence of military targets generally negates the claim of 'civilian area'.
    Yes because unarmed civilians pose so much of a threat to the IDF. Defense is one thing, revenge is quite another.
    Why do yu keep ignoring the fact that the people targeted by the IDF are not unarmed?
    And how, again, does this justify attacking civilians, UN convoys, and UN buildings?
    Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the terrorists in/around/near these things are the targets?
    It shouldnt have happened at all, if the IDF is a professional army....
    When were you last in combat in a n urban area against terrorists that look like civilains?
    How in the name of hell do you accidentally hit over a thousand civilians and half a dozen UN structures?
    When the enemy hides in and among them, its really pretty easy.
    My point is that Israel's invasion seems more like a stab at revenge, not security.
    Given the 'facts' you present in support of that conclusion, its no wonder your conclusion is so very weak.

  5. #25
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    Re: Israel-Palestine Talks Run Into Brick Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    And?
    Are hundreds of thousands not dying in Afghanistan and Iraq?
    Yes they are, what does that have to do with this?

    And again, IDF figures point at 295 deaths.
    The United Nations and other Palestinian refugee organizations put that number up over a thousand. You'll forgive me if I'm not inclined to take the IDF's word at this point.

    I can only point you to re-read the phrase you were commenting on with a statement like this.
    When militants launch attacks from an area, it's a military zone.
    Do you somehow pretend that Israelis have no right to self defense as long as their attackers do this from a complex of buildings?
    Because that would expose your argument's biggest weakness.
    Im arguin' that there's better ways to fight a war against an enemy like Hamas and Hezbollah than killing innocent people. The Israelis know damn well you arent going to get anywhere with a ground offensive against a group like that, any fool what can read knows that.

    Unarmed civilians were not targeted.
    Militants were.
    Really? A thousand people, all militants?

    I do not think I need to bring proof to point at the obvious, but yeah why not.
    Lebanon elite turns out to celebrate terrorist Samir Kuntar's engagement - Haaretz - Israel News
    I'm not finding much to support Al-Jazeera's being there beyond a journalistic capacity. I'm also not finding this story carried...pretty much anywhere else or Al-Jazeera mentioned as a guest anywhere else.

    None of the above were targeted.
    Mistakes happen all the time, especially during wars on terrorist organizations that hide in civilian areas.
    Read on NATO's operations for a better understanding, the understanding that you're obviously lacking when you blame the IDF with the targeting of civilians without being able to explain the dropping of leaflets, the phoning to homes and the 3 hours of humanitarian time.
    I dont contend that the IDF intentionally targeted civilians, I contend that they didnt stop their soldiers from doing so and gave little to no thought beyond what would look good in the papers for civilians.

    295 according to IDF figures, and it happens, quite logically, when you are engaging in a war with an organization hiding in a dense civilian populated area.
    A number which, as has been shown, is dramatically low.
    I'm Done

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    Re: Israel-Palestine Talks Run Into Brick Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    Im arguin' that there's better ways to fight a war against an enemy like Hamas and Hezbollah than killing innocent people
    Not when the people you're fighting deliberatly hise among those inoocent people.

    I dont contend that the IDF intentionally targeted civilians, I contend that they didnt stop their soldiers from doing so...
    Given that the nature of the opponent necessitates that civilians will die, there's no way to stop cvilians from dying.

    Why havent you been discussing how terrible the terrorists are for hiding among innocent people they know will get killed?

  7. #27
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    Re: Israel-Palestine Talks Run Into Brick Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Not when the people you're fighting deliberatly hise among those inoocent people.
    So our solution is to shoot down anything that moves?

    Given that the nature of the opponent necessitates that civilians will die, there's no way to stop cvilians from dying.
    Bull****, there is no cause, NONE, which requires murder like that.

    Why havent you been discussing how terrible the terrorists are for hiding among innocent people they know will get killed?
    Because I assumed you were intelligent enough to figure out that I dont condone that and my support is with the Palestinian people, not Hamas or Hezbollah.
    I'm Done

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  8. #28
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    Re: Israel-Palestine Talks Run Into Brick Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    And?
    Are hundreds of thousands not dying in Afghanistan and Iraq?
    And again, IDF figures point at 295 deaths.
    I can only point you to re-read the phrase you were commenting on with a statement like this.
    When militants launch attacks from an area, it's a military zone.
    Do you somehow pretend that Israelis have no right to self defense as long as their attackers do this from a complex of buildings?
    Because that would expose your argument's biggest weakness.
    Unarmed civilians were not targeted.
    Militants were.
    I do not think I need to bring proof to point at the obvious, but yeah why not.
    Lebanon elite turns out to celebrate terrorist Samir Kuntar's engagement - Haaretz - Israel News
    None of the above were targeted.
    Mistakes happen all the time, especially during wars on terrorist organizations that hide in civilian areas.
    Read on NATO's operations for a better understanding, the understanding that you're obviously lacking when you blame the IDF with the targeting of civilians without being able to explain the dropping of leaflets, the phoning to homes and the 3 hours of humanitarian time.
    295 according to IDF figures, and it happens, quite logically, when you are engaging in a war with an organization hiding in a dense civilian populated area.
    Then it only seems to you so, as this is purely an act of self-defense and is completely legitimate.
    Haven't you realized how some people will continue to demonize Israel no matter how much the actual facts of the matter are against them? Talk about brick walls.
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    Re: Israel-Palestine Talks Run Into Brick Wall

    Israel needs to flat open a can of whoop-ass and be done with it.

    There's my simple-minded post for the day. But it's true.

  10. #30
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    Re: Israel-Palestine Talks Run Into Brick Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Haven't you realized how some people will continue to demonize Israel no matter how much the actual facts of the matter are against them? Talk about brick walls.
    Maybe I'm just not as "with it" as to be ok with shooting unarmed people but I fail to see that Cast Lead was any sort of success. Has Hamas surrendered? Has Hamas stopped firing rockets? Have they stopped attacking Israel?

    The Israelis did the same thing in Gaza that we did in Vietnam. We failed then and Israel failed this time.

    I'm also none to thrilled with Israel trying to sneak the attack in as our elections were coming to a head, knowing probably that most Americans wouldnt be paying attention and that a president who would turn a blind eye to anything that happened would still be in office but so far along that he wouldnt care what happened.
    I'm Done

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