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Health Care Summit Squabbles

Catz Part Deux

Catz Part Deux

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Who Lied? Who told the truth?

Health Care Summit Squabbles | FactCheck.org

■Sen. Lamar Alexander said premiums will go up for “millions” under the Senate bill and president’s plan, while President Barack Obama said families buying the same coverage they have now would pay much less. Both were misleading. The Congressional Budget Office said premiums for those in the group market wouldn’t change significantly, while the average premium for those who buy their own coverage would go up.
■Alexander also said “50 percent of doctors won’t see new [Medicaid] patients.” But a 2008 survey says only 28 percent refuse to take any new Medicaid patients.
■Sen. Harry Reid cited a poll that said 58 percent would be “angry or disappointed” if health care overhaul doesn’t pass. True, but respondents in the poll were also split 43-43 on whether they supported the legislation that is currently being proposed.
■Obama repeated an inflated claim we’ve covered before. He said insured families pay about $1,000 a year in their premiums to cover costs for the uninsured. That’s a disputed figure from an advocacy group. Other researchers put the figure at about $200.
■Sen. Tom Coburn said “the government is responsible for 60 percent” of U.S. health spending. But that dubious figure includes lost tax revenue due to charitable contributions to hospitals and other questionable items. The real figure is about 47 percent.
■Reid said “since 1981 reconciliation has been used 21 times. Most of it has been used by Republicans.” That’s true, but scholars say using it to pass health care legislation would be the most ambitious use to date of this filibuster-avoiding maneuver.
■Rep. Charles Boustany said the main GOP-backed bill would reduce premium costs by “up to about 10 percent.” According to CBO, that’s true for the small group market, which accounts for only 15 percent of premiums. But premiums in the large group market would stay the same or go down by as much as 3 percent.
Click to expand...
 
Reality has a well-known liberal bias!
 
It is unfortunate that the will of the people is now meaningless to the Majority of the party currently in charge.

The hypocrites are now running the asylum. It was just a short time back in 2005 that Senators Obama, Clinton, Shumer, Reid, Feinstein, Biden, Dodd, Baucus, all railed against the Republicans and made their case for why the nuclear opposition was wrong unfair and all the damage using it would cause and the Senate will become no better than the House and blah blah blah BS.

Now it's okay because the new Messiah says it is.

What's that I'm lying they never said any of that. It's just something i heard some talk show guy saying.

Well I am one of those guys but I do my home work and take no ones word without proof. So here it's is.

Breitbart.tv Obama & Dems in ‘05: 51 Vote ‘Nuclear Option’ Is ‘Arrogant’ Power Grab Against the Founders’ Intent
 
Councilman said:
It is unfortunate that the will of the people is now meaningless to the Majority of the party currently in charge.
Click to expand...

How is the will of the people meaningless when a majority of our representatives do what we elected them to do???:confused:

Reconciliation has been used widely in the past, especially by Republicans. Were all of these votes against the will of the people?

"Despite their howls against Obama, Republicans employed the same procedure to pass major Bush agenda items (which were supported by all four aforementioned Senators):

– The 2001 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 1836, 3/26/01]
– The 2003 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 2, 3/23/03]
– Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005 [HR 4297, 5/11/06]
– The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 [H. Con Res. 95, 12/21/05]"

"While Republicans seem to be experiencing a particular form of political amnesia from the Bush years, they ought to be reminded that budget reconciliation has been used by several other presidents, including Clinton and Reagan. In fact, Republicans — with Bond and Gregg among the leaders of the charge — were instrumental in pushing through key provisions of their signature legislative agenda, the Contract with America, using budget reconciliation.

A list of instances where reconciliation was implemented:

Omnibus Reconciliation Act of 1980
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1981
Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1982
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1983
Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1986
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1987
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1989
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993
Balanced Budget Act of 1995 (vetoed)
Personal Responsibility and Budget Reconciliation Act of 1996
Balanced Budget Act of 1997
Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997
Taxpayer Refund and Relief Act of 1999 (vetoed)
Marriage Tax Relief Act of 2000 (vetoed)
Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001
Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003
The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005
Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005"
Think Progress GOP Senators Who Used Budget Reconciliation To Pass Bush Agenda Items Now Calling It ‘Chicago Style Politics’
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Sen. Lamar Alexander said premiums will go up for “millions” under the Senate bill and president’s plan, while President Barack Obama said families buying the same coverage they have now would pay much less. Both were misleading. The Congressional Budget Office said premiums for those in the group market wouldn’t change significantly, while the average premium for those who buy their own coverage would go up.
Click to expand...
Not sure how Alexander was being "misleading" -- 18 million people in the US buy their own coverage. Going by the CBO findings, it is true that "millions" will see premiums go up.
 
Oh look....

Tax and or budget – The 2001 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 1836, 3/26/01]
Tax and or budget – The 2003 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 2, 3/23/03]
Tax and or budget – Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005 [HR 4297, 5/11/06]
Tax and or budget – The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 [H. Con Res. 95, 12/21/05]"

Changes to reconciliation I think Omnibus Reconciliation Act of 1980
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1981
Tax and or budget Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1982
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1983
Tax and or budget Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1986
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1987
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1989
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993
Tax and or budget Balanced Budget Act of 1995 (vetoed)
Tax and or budget Personal Responsibility and Budget Reconciliation Act of 1996
Tax and or budget Balanced Budget Act of 1997
Tax and or budget Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997
Tax and or budget Taxpayer Refund and Relief Act of 1999 (vetoed)
Tax and or budget Marriage Tax Relief Act of 2000 (vetoed)
Tax and or budget Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001
Tax and or budget Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003
Tax and or budget The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005
Tax and or budget Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005"

While definitely there are some within that grouping that stretches and bends the notion of reconcilliation and I would be against its use in such situations, none of them are even close in comparison to the Health Care bill which does not simply stretch and bend the purposes of reconciliation but shatters it.

Funny how no one is using the term the "nuclear option". The Dems are going to use the "Nuclear Option". I mean, we heard that all the time when talking about using Senate Rules to do a majority vote for Republicans in past years and yet somehow such a negative connotation never seems to be how its described here. Odd that....
 
Zyphlin said:
Oh look....

Tax and or budget – The 2001 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 1836, 3/26/01]
Tax and or budget – The 2003 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 2, 3/23/03]
Tax and or budget – Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005 [HR 4297, 5/11/06]
Tax and or budget – The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 [H. Con Res. 95, 12/21/05]"

Changes to reconciliation I think Omnibus Reconciliation Act of 1980
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1981
Tax and or budget Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1982
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1983
Tax and or budget Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1986
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1987
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1989
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993
Tax and or budget Balanced Budget Act of 1995 (vetoed)
Tax and or budget Personal Responsibility and Budget Reconciliation Act of 1996
Tax and or budget Balanced Budget Act of 1997
Tax and or budget Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997
Tax and or budget Taxpayer Refund and Relief Act of 1999 (vetoed)
Tax and or budget Marriage Tax Relief Act of 2000 (vetoed)
Tax and or budget Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001
Tax and or budget Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003
Tax and or budget The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005
Tax and or budget Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005"

While definitely there are some within that grouping that stretches and bends the notion of reconcilliation and I would be against its use in such situations, none of them are even close in comparison to the Health Care bill which does not simply stretch and bend the purposes of reconciliation but shatters it.

Funny how no one is using the term the "nuclear option". The Dems are going to use the "Nuclear Option". I mean, we heard that all the time when talking about using Senate Rules to do a majority vote for Republicans in past years and yet somehow such a negative connotation never seems to be how its described here. Odd that....
Click to expand...
My understanding of reconciliation is that it is typically used for budget changes and the substance of law.
 
***** Just one possibly overriding point though. IF we were in a much better economy than the present AND if certain sectors were capeable of really bouncing back - and IF we weren't running huge defecit's/debt's - THEN a massive move like this MIGHT be feasible to cover the loopholes some are always sliuding thru and to try to cover every last soul - not that THAT will ever truly happen:shock:

****** However it was obvious from the day Obama took the oath that as a result of the crisis of September 2008 that the economy would at least spiral down further. To believe otherwise would be foolish - so WHY the near TOTAL focus on this massive bill unless the real priority has been all along not to cure a problem - but to alter the overall societal balance and "stick it to" those who stil have a degree of economic flexibility.

****** In this rotten economy the focus should be job creation in the Private sector. Once you are in double digits all the best intentions need to be set aside to try to stop the slide and turn things around. This clearly is not Barry's focus because he assumes that once this turkey gets thru in any form - he gets the praise - and if the SCOTUS eventually dissembles it - well that's years away.
 
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Catawba said:
How is the will of the people meaningless when a majority of our representatives do what we elected them to do???:confused:

Reconciliation has been used widely in the past, especially by Republicans. Were all of these votes against the will of the people?

"Despite their howls against Obama, Republicans employed the same procedure to pass major Bush agenda items (which were supported by all four aforementioned Senators):

– The 2001 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 1836, 3/26/01]
– The 2003 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 2, 3/23/03]
– Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005 [HR 4297, 5/11/06]
– The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 [H. Con Res. 95, 12/21/05]"

"While Republicans seem to be experiencing a particular form of political amnesia from the Bush years, they ought to be reminded that budget reconciliation has been used by several other presidents, including Clinton and Reagan. In fact, Republicans — with Bond and Gregg among the leaders of the charge — were instrumental in pushing through key provisions of their signature legislative agenda, the Contract with America, using budget reconciliation.

A list of instances where reconciliation was implemented:

Omnibus Reconciliation Act of 1980
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1981
Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1982
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1983
Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1986
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1987
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1989
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993
Balanced Budget Act of 1995 (vetoed)
Personal Responsibility and Budget Reconciliation Act of 1996
Balanced Budget Act of 1997
Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997
Taxpayer Refund and Relief Act of 1999 (vetoed)
Marriage Tax Relief Act of 2000 (vetoed)
Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001
Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003
The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005
Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005"
Think Progress GOP Senators Who Used Budget Reconciliation To Pass Bush Agenda Items Now Calling It ‘Chicago Style Politics’
Click to expand...

Wow..... look at that....... all of those examples are for financial items, just like reconciliation was designed for..... not something like the health care take over.
 
Zyphlin said:
Oh look....

Tax and or budget – The 2001 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 1836, 3/26/01]
Tax and or budget – The 2003 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 2, 3/23/03]
Tax and or budget – Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005 [HR 4297, 5/11/06]
Tax and or budget – The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 [H. Con Res. 95, 12/21/05]"

Changes to reconciliation I think Omnibus Reconciliation Act of 1980
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1981
Tax and or budget Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1982
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1983
Tax and or budget Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1986
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1987
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1989
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990
Tax and or budget Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993
Tax and or budget Balanced Budget Act of 1995 (vetoed)
Tax and or budget Personal Responsibility and Budget Reconciliation Act of 1996
Tax and or budget Balanced Budget Act of 1997
Tax and or budget Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997
Tax and or budget Taxpayer Refund and Relief Act of 1999 (vetoed)
Tax and or budget Marriage Tax Relief Act of 2000 (vetoed)
Tax and or budget Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001
Tax and or budget Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003
Tax and or budget The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005
Tax and or budget Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005"

While definitely there are some within that grouping that stretches and bends the notion of reconcilliation and I would be against its use in such situations, none of them are even close in comparison to the Health Care bill which does not simply stretch and bend the purposes of reconciliation but shatters it.

Funny how no one is using the term the "nuclear option". The Dems are going to use the "Nuclear Option". I mean, we heard that all the time when talking about using Senate Rules to do a majority vote for Republicans in past years and yet somehow such a negative connotation never seems to be how its described here. Odd that....
Click to expand...

Damn... beat me to it. :(
 
Deuce said:
Reality has a well-known liberal bias!
Click to expand...
commiesobamapelosireidorig1.jpg
 
Catawba said:
How is the will of the people meaningless when a majority of our representatives do what we elected them to do???:confused:

Reconciliation has been used widely in the past, especially by Republicans. Were all of these votes against the will of the people?

"Despite their howls against Obama, Republicans employed the same procedure to pass major Bush agenda items (which were supported by all four aforementioned Senators):

– The 2001 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 1836, 3/26/01]
– The 2003 Bush Tax Cuts [HR 2, 3/23/03]
– Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005 [HR 4297, 5/11/06]
– The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 [H. Con Res. 95, 12/21/05]"

"While Republicans seem to be experiencing a particular form of political amnesia from the Bush years, they ought to be reminded that budget reconciliation has been used by several other presidents, including Clinton and Reagan. In fact, Republicans — with Bond and Gregg among the leaders of the charge — were instrumental in pushing through key provisions of their signature legislative agenda, the Contract with America, using budget reconciliation.

A list of instances where reconciliation was implemented:

Omnibus Reconciliation Act of 1980
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1981
Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1982
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1983
Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1986
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1987
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1989
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993
Balanced Budget Act of 1995 (vetoed)
Personal Responsibility and Budget Reconciliation Act of 1996
Balanced Budget Act of 1997
Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997
Taxpayer Refund and Relief Act of 1999 (vetoed)
Marriage Tax Relief Act of 2000 (vetoed)
Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001
Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003
The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005
Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005"
Think Progress GOP Senators Who Used Budget Reconciliation To Pass Bush Agenda Items Now Calling It ‘Chicago Style Politics’
Click to expand...

It looks like in all of the examples above are BUDGET items, not something that changes an entitlement that impacts all of our lives.

Thanks for the list that proves what opponents of reconciliation are talking about.

The checks and balances in America to guard against the tyranny of the majority is one of the things that makes America great.
 
washunut said:
Thanks for the list.....
Click to expand...

You are welcome! Some seem to think this legislation cannot be passed under a reconciliation vote, but they have forgotten this legislation will reduce the deficit and is therefore applicable to the reconciliation process.

"reconciliation rules are traditionally used for deficit reduction and health care reform will reduce the deficit."
President Obama to Say Democrats Will Use Reconciliation to Pass Senate Health Care Reform Fix, If Not Given Up or Down Vote - Political Punch
 
Catawba said:
You are welcome! Some seem to think this legislation cannot be passed under a reconciliation vote, but they have forgotten this legislation will reduce the deficit and is therefore applicable to the reconciliation process.

"reconciliation rules are traditionally used for deficit reduction and health care reform will reduce the deficit."
President Obama to Say Democrats Will Use Reconciliation to Pass Senate Health Care Reform Fix, If Not Given Up or Down Vote - Political Punch
Click to expand...

Damn, talk about stretching the truth to the nth degree. LOL

Those are budgetary items. You just proved the Republicans point. Well done.
 
Catawba said:
You are welcome! Some seem to think this legislation cannot be passed under a reconciliation vote, but they have forgotten this legislation will reduce the deficit and is therefore applicable to the reconciliation process.

"reconciliation rules are traditionally used for deficit reduction and health care reform will reduce the deficit."
President Obama to Say Democrats Will Use Reconciliation to Pass Senate Health Care Reform Fix, If Not Given Up or Down Vote - Political Punch
Click to expand...

A Dem that should know doesn't agree with you:

"I oppose using the budget reconciliation process to pass health care reform and climate change legislation.... As one of the authors of the reconciliation process, I can tell you that the ironclad parliamentary procedures it authorizes were never intended for this purpose."
Click to expand...

Robert Byrd
 
Gill said:
A Dem that should know doesn't agree with you:



Robert Byrd
Click to expand...

I guess you are not aware that your hero, Robert Byrd, has since clarified his position on reconciliation regarding health care reform:

Robert Byrd - “Yet a bill structured to reduce deficits by, for example, finding savings in Medicare or lowering health care costs, may be consistent with the Budget Act, and appropriately considered under reconciliation.”
Byrd Defends Use of Reconciliation - Prescriptions Blog - NYTimes.com
 
Catawba said:
I guess you are not aware that your hero, Robert Byrd, has since clarified his position on reconciliation regarding health care reform:

Robert Byrd - “Yet a bill structured to reduce deficits by, for example, finding savings in Medicare or lowering health care costs, may be consistent with the Budget Act, and appropriately considered under reconciliation.”
Byrd Defends Use of Reconciliation - Prescriptions Blog - NYTimes.com
Click to expand...

A flip-flop wouldn't surprise me... after all he is a dem.

We'll see an announcement in a few months that $500 million has been awarded West Virginia for a new Byrd Airport.
 
Gill said:
A flip-flop wouldn't surprise me... after all he is a dem.

We'll see an announcement in a few months that $500 million has been awarded West Virginia for a new Byrd Airport.
Click to expand...

So you have flip-flopped in your support of Byrd now based on the new info I provided?
 
Catawba said:
So you have flip-flopped in your support of Byrd now based on the new info I provided?
Click to expand...

What could possibly give you the idea that I've ever supported Byrd???

Hint: Quoting someone is not supporting them.
 
Gill said:
What could possibly give you the idea that I've ever supported Byrd???
Click to expand...

Seems like you were supporting his position:

Gill - "A Dem that should know doesn't agree with you:

Robert Byrd"
 
Catawba said:
Seems like you were supporting his position:

Gill - "A Dem that should know doesn't agree with you:

Robert Byrd"
Click to expand...

I said he should know since he wrote the Byrd Rule covering this situation, but it appears he can be bought like most Dems.
 
Gill said:
I said he should know since he wrote the Byrd Rule covering this situation, but it appears he can be bought like most Dems.
Click to expand...

Or, since there is no proof whatsoever of your just made up claim suggesting bribery, the much more likely case is that he correctly recognizes that deficit reduction amendments are proper items for reconciliation just as he stated.
 
Catawba said:
Or, since there is no proof whatsoever of your just made up claim suggesting bribery, the much more likely case is that he correctly recognizes that deficit reduction amendments are proper items for reconciliation just as he stated.
Click to expand...

OR, he is a typical Dem and flip-flops as the situation demands......
 
Gill said:
OR, he is a typical Dem and flip-flops as the situation demands......
Click to expand...

We will see if that is the case, or not, if health care reform is approved to go through Reconciliation by the Congressional Parliamentarian (a Republican appointee).
 
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