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Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

I don't think so - I think the good he's done will be overshadowed by the problems that came from the effort (the recession, etc).

In part because history has a horrible knack for going back ONLY "so far" when it comes to assessing the problems in a situation for the sake of simply summarizing "what happened"

As is evident when some of us were discussing out Lassez-Faire economics led to the Great Depression 40 years later - there's only so far back that people are willing to go to truly understand how things happened in order to see how ot avoid them in the future.

The common knowledge is embarrassingly weak, but the depression has actually been extremely well studied by economists, notably including Ben Bernanke.

That may be true of the recession, even though it should be obvious that it wasn't Bush's fault any more than the bull market of the 90's was. But I don't think it will be true of Iraq. It is more common sense than the nuances of the business cycle and the financial system. When people see Iraq (and for that matter Afghanistan) established as a free, modern democracy, and a corresponding decline in terrorism, they will associate it with George Bush.
 
The common knowledge is embarrassingly weak, but the depression has actually been extremely well studied by economists, notably including Ben Bernanke.

That may be true of the recession, even though it should be obvious that it wasn't Bush's fault any more than the bull market of the 90's was. But I don't think it will be true of Iraq. It is more common sense than the nuances of the business cycle and the financial system. When people see Iraq (and for that matter Afghanistan) established as a free, modern democracy, and a corresponding decline in terrorism, they will associate it with George Bush.

Yes - good point.
We're discussing an issue of "common knowledge" VS "historians"
Historians fully know how things happen - it's their interest (I think a lot of us, here, are interested into the deeper details of why things happen the way they do)
But common knowledge aside from specialized interest comes to many purely in the form of textbooks and the occasional show on the history channel - which may or may not be in depth or accurate.

I have a feeling that the 'common knowledge' will always be sided with Bush's efforts - until we get WAY into the future when personal views are no longer a concern.
 
Every Soldier that died for Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield's lies died in vain.

Perhaps when you pontificate from a more foward operating position than your couch with a box of ring dings someone wi take you smearing sdiers more seriously. :shrug:
 
Perhaps when you pontificate from a more foward operating position than your couch with a box of ring dings someone wi take you smearing sdiers more seriously. :shrug:

Its not a smear to our soldiers at all. In fact, I honor and sympathize with every soldier that was placed in harms way to fight a neo-con war based on lies, manipulation and deceit.

It is a dishonor to EVER ask an American soldier to put their lives/limbs on the line for one man's arrogance.
 
Its not a smear to our soldiers at all. In fact, I honor and sympathize with every soldier that was placed in harms way to fight a neo-con war based on lies, manipulation and deceit.

It is a dishonor to EVER ask an American soldier to put their lives/limbs on the line for one man's arrogance.





So is it only bush's lies? or was there a patern of information that led to this war?


Was there a cease fire sculped by the UN that allowed for the largest embezzelment scheme in world history?


or are you looking at calling troops dying in vain as a political tool like suggesting palin writes 4 words on her hand.


This is low, even for you.
 
So is it only bush's lies? or was there a patern of information that led to this war?


Was there a cease fire sculped by the UN that allowed for the largest embezzelment scheme in world history?


or are you looking at calling troops dying in vain as a political tool like suggesting palin writes 4 words on her hand.


This is low, even for you.

Sorry...but yes. There is ample evidence out there that Cheney/Rumsfield and Bush saw 911 as the perfect tool to manipulate the public and justify Cheney and Rumsfields decade long desire to invade Iraq. It was carefully crafted and the "perfect storm"..........and they absolutely capitalized on it and our soldiers were nothing more than pawns to them.

The ultimate irony would be if Bush were ever lauded for these evil and despicable efforts.
 
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Hellhound, at some point it's important to note when someone is just off their rocker and not worth talking to. It appears you've blown past that point with this guy.
 
Sorry...but yes. There is ample evidence out there that Cheney/Rumsfield and Bush saw 911 as the perfect tool to manipulate the public and justify Cheney and Rumsfields decade long desire to invade Iraq. It was carefully crafted and the "perfect storm"..........and they absolutely capitalized on it and our soldiers were nothing more than pawns to them.

The ultimate irony would be if Bush were ever lauded for these evil and despicable efforts.




You look like a partisan hack, and your using troops to fodder your hack position.


If The Bush Administration Lied About WMD, So Did These People -- Version 3.0 - Right Wing News (Conservative News and Views)
 

Sorry...I won't even attempt to try to open your eyes because you obviously want to believe that Bush and Cheney were noble in their efforts.
Keep your eyes closed to the evidence and don't even think to wonder why we would invade Iraq as a response to 911.....because it doesn't fit within the world that you so want to live in....:2wave:
 
Sorry...I won't even attempt to try to open your eyes because you obviously want to believe that Bush and Cheney were noble in their efforts.
Keep your eyes closed to the evidence and don't even think to wonder why we would invade Iraq as a response to 911.....because it doesn't fit within the world that you so want to live in....:2wave:





so is hypocrisy always your fall back?


i find your refusal to even acknowledge historical fact, par for the course for a partisan hack such as yourself....
 
Of course the only possible reason we could have invaded Iraq was a decades old personal vendetta held by Bush's advisors. It's the only logical explanation, you just need someone to open your eyes.
 
I pretty much agree with most of your post, with some disagreement in your last paragraph. Obama was against the war from the beginning, and I give him credit for being one of the few that had the foresight to see it was complete and utter bull. While the surge proved to make some difference, it --nor anything else--will never guarantee a "victory." As much as I despised this war, I'm torn about the withdrawl. I guess I don't know enough to make any judgement. Part of me sees this as a good thing to run and cut the losses, while another part of me thinks it could be chaotic for the people of Iraq.

I think Biden is smoking crack if he thinks anything that comes out of Iraq would be considered a victory.

This is the problem with people that opposed this war. To them, there will never be anything that will ever be considered successful. Thats why I am grateful that Obama has the integrity to seemingly see this thing through to a point where it is stable, rather than simply appeasing fools who believe an immediate pullout is favorable for all.
 
I'll end this bickering.

There was no WMD. There were no terrorists.

There was a tyrannical, bloothirsty dictator with a regime that would never leave power who murdered scores of people, invaded neighbors, raped, tortured and wrongfully imprisoned people for no reason.

He's dead now. That's a good thing.

There are times that I get pretty upset when I look back on the two years that I spent there. There are times when I mutter to myself the same things disneydude is saying. There are times when I can justify it, like Rev.

I don't really know what to think about it. Some of my buddies went home in bodybags; some have no legs. I got lucky, I guess.

I don't know what to think of it, even after all these years. It is what it is.

Most of the time, I think we helped more people than we hurt. If that's how I can justify it in my mind, the I guess that's good enough. There are those that will never see it that way; I understand. I'm not mad they feel that way.

And for those who have and will support it forever, I'm ok with that, too.
 
ahhh, remember back when the addition of Biden to the ticket was supposed to add "gravitas"? :lamo
 
If Biden considers the war in Iraq to be any type of 'achievement' then he obviously doesn't have his sights set too high for the administration.

Well, this administration needs at least one acheivement before 2012. :lol:
 
Our claiming success is accurate. After all we have done we have mostly disengaged from security operations and are bringing troops home according to the schedule that Bush and the Iraqi government agreed to.

The real test, however, will continue to be the ability of Iraqis to govern themselves. In that vein, the upcoming elections in March will be the next signpost. If elections are pulled off with only a few assassinations....if they spend only 3-6 months forming a new government...if it doesn't regress into sectarian violence again, these will be signs of our success.

This claim by Obama taking credit for Bush is laughable and premature.
 
It's pathetic. Two senators who actively opposed the surge to turn around and claim credit for it's success. I simply can't believe it's come to this for this administration.
 
they're delusional

they still think they won in massachusetts
 
I have to agree, he should be talking about the success of the American military and the Iraqis
 
I think that unless it falls into chaos there again, Iraq will be as forgotten as Korea. With the noteworthy exception that Iraq was about one-tenth of the scale of Korea.
 
Anyone agree with this assessment, that Obama's policies on Iraq are what caused the success or was it the continuation of the Bush policy that had done so.


has it been 18 months yet? :ssst:
Wasn't someone against the surge?
 
I'll end this bickering.

There was no WMD. There were no terrorists.

There was a tyrannical, bloothirsty dictator with a regime that would never leave power who murdered scores of people, invaded neighbors, raped, tortured and wrongfully imprisoned people for no reason.

He's dead now. That's a good thing.

There are times that I get pretty upset when I look back on the two years that I spent there. There are times when I mutter to myself the same things disneydude is saying. There are times when I can justify it, like Rev.

I don't really know what to think about it. Some of my buddies went home in bodybags; some have no legs. I got lucky, I guess.

I don't know what to think of it, even after all these years. It is what it is.

Most of the time, I think we helped more people than we hurt. If that's how I can justify it in my mind, the I guess that's good enough. There are those that will never see it that way; I understand. I'm not mad they feel that way.

And for those who have and will support it forever, I'm ok with that, too.

I strongly disagree with you. If we are going to be the world's policeman, then why don't we go to Rwanda? The leaders there make Saddam look like a boy scout. Why don't we invade ALL the places in the world where torture and mass murder run rampant? We just don't. Why? We don't have the resources.

So what was it with Iraq? Sure, Saddam was an asshole, but that was just a cover for the real reason, which was thought of by the Neocon think tank "Project for the New American Century". PNAC was put together as a result of a paper, written by Dick Cheney, called "Rebuilding America's Defenses", which detailed invading Middle East Nations and installing American-like governments in them. The Middle East has always been one of the most strategic places in the world in which to project power. Eventually, the plan was to overthrow seven nations in five years, starting with Iraq.

When 911 happened, Afghanistan was moved to the top of the list because we had to take out the Taliban for what they did. Before 911, the Taliban were actually close friends of the Administration. Hell, they were right here in Houston in the spring of 2001, meeting with Bush administration figures. 911 changed all these negotiations, because the Taliban wouldn't give bin Laden up, and decided to provide him with safe haven. Afghanistan had to be invaded, and I totally supported Bush on that.

However, Iraq was still the main objective. as the first nation to take down and westernize, according to PNAC philosophy. Syria, Iran, and others were also on the list, but Iraq was the starting point. Afghanistan was abandoned so that the Neocon plan could move forward.

This had nothing to do with Saddam being a bad guy. It also had nothing to do with oil, as many of the Liberals claim. It all had to do with cementing America as the lone superpower in the world, after the fall of Russia. Once accomplished, according to PNAC documents, America would be the world's ONLY power for a whole century, hence the name "Project for the New American Century".

The Iraq War was fought for ideology, nothing more. It was fought for a hairbrained ideology that was so full of holes it had no real chance to succeed. Did our leaders actually lie in their attempt to implement their radical ideas? Not exactly, but they did cherry pick their intel to justify going into Iraq, using forged documents and a contact known as "Curveball", who was known for stretching the truth, and rejected the mountains of information that showed Saddam has NO weapons of mass destruction, and no nuclear weapons program - Not even "under the rose bushes". While you can't exactly say they lied, they DID use the concept of "Noble Lies", taught by Neocon Leo Strauss at the University of Chicago, and which was one of the pillars of Neocon ideology. It's the same thing, but only worded differently.

"Noble Lies" is not a new concept. It originated with Plato, developed by Machiavelli, used by both Marx and Engels in their writings, and was also a pillar of Communist thought. Essentially, the concept is that a lie is not really a lie if it is done for a good cause. If the population would not normally go along with what the leaders considered a good plan, then the leaders have a responsibilty to twist the truth, so that the population would follow them. "Noble Lies" was a cornerstone of Neocon ideology. While you can make a case that the administraiton did not technically lie to get us into Iraq, the cherry picking of information, that is, picking the bad info and rejecting the good info, amounts to the same thing.

No, Iraq was not fought for oil, nor because Saddam was a bad guy. It wasn't even fought because Saddam wanted to kill Bush's father. It was fought over a hair brained ideology espoused by a group that was madder than hatters.

Having said all that, this does not reflect badly on the military, which is in place to keep America safe. Misuse of the military by the leaders does not make the military bad. It only makes those who misuse the military bad, and those who fought in Iraq are just as honorable as those who have fought in any other war. They bleed and die for the rest of us.

Thank you for your service.
 
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So let me get this straight....

The Administration is essentially following BUSH'S pull out time table, which is possible to be done because of BUSH'S surge proposal working, and wants to still blame BUSH solely for going into Iraq but wants to take full credit for the SUCCESS of it?

I don't know whether to laugh at the idiocy or cry at the likihood of hyper partisan liberals buying it.
 
Well, this administration needs at least one acheivement before 2012. :lol:

I honestly think that's the driving force behind everything Obama has done since healthcare started to fall apart.
 
PNAC was put together as a result of a paper, written by Dick Cheney, called "Rebuilding America's Defenses", which detailed invading Middle East Nations and installing American-like governments in them. The Middle East has always been one of the most strategic places in the world in which to project power. Eventually, the plan was to overthrow seven nations in five years, starting with Iraq.

Do you have a link to this paper, Dana?

edit - n/m I think I found it: http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
 
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