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Thread: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    "Yet Rwanda"...and if we were in Rwanda it would be "Yet ________".
    If you cannot morally support a war against Saddam, who can you support one against? How many of his own citizens does a dictator needs to kill before you believe its ok to move in. You must have a number in mind, since Rwandan deaths are more important than Iraqi ones.

    Iraq simply provides more opportunities for progress in the ME, than does Rwanda progressing the continent of Africa. We already had bases staged in the area from the first gulf war. Logistically, Iraq made a ton of sense as far as staging for the war as well as geo-political influence. Besides, there are plenty of European countries sitting around not doing anything of value with regards to human rights outside their own borders. Where is your ire for their non-activity in Rwanda, Darfur, Myannmar, etc.... Or are your criticisms only for whenever the US acts, or doesn't?

    At least we do something, which is more than the rest of the piggybackers can claim.
    Crip, you know full well that Iraq did not start out as being a war for the sake saving the people of Iraq from a murderous dictator. It became said mission when no WMDs were found. The Bush administration had to save face, and that is the card they played.

    Now I have nothing against any country trying to make the world a better place, in fact, I can respect and support that. What happened with Iraq was a "our way or the highway" atitude that ostracized many a nation who were completely sympathetic with the US up until that point. I look back now and shake my head.

    Anyway, what is done is done. I think the US should stay the course now and get the job done, which will most likely take decades (which makes me wonder what was the original timeline set up by Bush... a year or so?). Leaving now would be a bad move, and most likely undo all the good that has been done up to this point.

    PS. As for Darfur and Rwanda, the world (especially the UN) certainly missed the boat on these, IMO. Nobody seemed to care... probably because they are a poor, third-world nation. I remember an interview with Clinton saying that was his biggest regret. I hope Jean Chretien feels the same way. A great book about what happened was written by Canadian peacekeeper, Romeo Dallaire if you interested in reading.

    [ame=http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679311718/homeimprov07d-20]Shake Hands with the Devil: Amazon.ca: Romeo Dallaire: Books[/ame]
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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by gopman View Post
    Exactly! Deposing dictators in Rwanda or Zimbabwe would do a lot to stabilize that region, but fortunately for whatever reason that region doesn't produce many terrorists that threaten the US. Certainly not relative to the Middle East.

    You would think the UN would want to remove those dictators in Africa, but I guess they're too busy saving the world from global warming.
    The UN is a collection of representatives mostly sent by dictators. Why would they want the UN to depose dictatorships?
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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Crip, you know full well that Iraq did not start out as being a war for the sake saving the people of Iraq from a murderous dictator. It became said mission when no WMDs were found. The Bush administration had to save face, and that is the card they played.
    On the contrary -- the humanitarian argument regarding the peopel of Iraq was in place before the war. It was, at the minimum, mentioned in both the 2002 resolutuon and the 2003 state of the union address.

    Now I have nothing against any country trying to make the world a better place, in fact, I can respect and support that. What happened with Iraq was a "our way or the highway" atitude that ostracized many a nation who were completely sympathetic with the US up until that point.
    No... what happened with Iraq is that a bunch of countries that agreed in every way that Iraq was indeed the described threat decided that they didnt have thew stoned to actually do something about it.
    This is not, in any way, a poor reflection on GWB.

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    A couple of things:
    -Saddam wanted people to think that he had WMD. Given that, is it really any surprise that everyone thought he had them (even the French, who were opposed to the war)?
    -As things stood, the only access we had to oil in the Middle East was via tyrannical regimes where people frequently turned to terrorism. The only way to have a democratic foothold there was to make one. And there Saddam happened to be, giving the UN the finger.

    Maybe invading Iraq wasn't the right thing to do. But we turned it into the right thing to do.

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    The Obama administration is going to oversee the entire withdrawal. If anything goes wrong with it then I'm quite sure the Republicans are going to be blaming it on Obama, so if his administration are the ones overseeing it and all goes smoothly, they also get the credit for it. It's how it works.

    Bush gets credit for the surge and it's effectiveness, even though I never thought from the beginning that we belonged there. But Obama gets the credit if everything goes alright with the withdrawal. It requires alot more than just bussing home a bunch of soldiers. People don't seem to be thinking of the difficulties of bringing home that many troops safely, and if they do it successfully, then he should be able to brag on it all he pleases.
    Bush gets credit (or cursed) for going in in the first place. He gets credit for overseeing the sectarian civil war. He gets credit for stopping it with the surge. He gets credit for establishing a democracy in Iraq. He gets credit for safe elections. He gets credit for the establishment of democratic institutions. Bush gets credit for negotiating a withdrawal plan.

    Obama will get credit, if it works, for executing Bush's withdrawal plan of combat troops. If things turn south, Obama will get the blame. Obama gets zero credit for the democracy.

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    "Yet Rwanda"...and if we were in Rwanda it would be "Yet ________".
    If you cannot morally support a war against Saddam, who can you support one against? How many of his own citizens does a dictator needs to kill before you believe its ok to move in. You must have a number in mind, since Rwandan deaths are more important than Iraqi ones.

    Iraq simply provides more opportunities for progress in the ME, than does Rwanda progressing the continent of Africa. We already had bases staged in the area from the first gulf war. Logistically, Iraq made a ton of sense as far as staging for the war as well as geo-political influence. Besides, there are plenty of European countries sitting around not doing anything of value with regards to human rights outside their own borders. Where is your ire for their non-activity in Rwanda, Darfur, Myannmar, etc.... Or are your criticisms only for whenever the US acts, or doesn't?

    At least we do something, which is more than the rest of the piggybackers can claim.
    There were additional reasons to favor intervention in Iraq for humanitarian reasons, and not Rwanda or Darfur:
    • Iraq have violated 17 UN resolutions
    • Iraq was the second largest Oil producer
    • Iraq had a higher education level, enabling democracy
    • Iraq had a more robust economy, enabling democracy
    • It was easier to make a case to go into Iraq (WMD)

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Anyway, what is done is done. I think the US should stay the course now and get the job done, which will most likely take decades (which makes me wonder what was the original timeline set up by Bush... a year or so?). Leaving now would be a bad move, and most likely undo all the good that has been done up to this point.
    I cannot tell you, as an Iraqi war supporter (with doubts about the justification for going in - but still a supporter once we were there), how much this attitude means to me. Let's get it done right, now that we have committed to doing it.

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I strongly disagree with you. If we are going to be the world's policeman, then why don't we go to Rwanda? The leaders there make Saddam look like a boy scout. Why don't we invade ALL the places in the world where torture and mass murder run rampant? We just don't. Why? We don't have the resources.

    So what was it with Iraq? Sure, Saddam was an asshole, but that was just a cover for the real reason, which was thought of by the Neocon think tank "Project for the New American Century". PNAC was put together as a result of a paper, written by Dick Cheney, called "Rebuilding America's Defenses", which detailed invading Middle East Nations and installing American-like governments in them. The Middle East has always been one of the most strategic places in the world in which to project power. Eventually, the plan was to overthrow seven nations in five years, starting with Iraq.

    When 911 happened, Afghanistan was moved to the top of the list because we had to take out the Taliban for what they did. Before 911, the Taliban were actually close friends of the Administration. Hell, they were right here in Houston in the spring of 2001, meeting with Bush administration figures. 911 changed all these negotiations, because the Taliban wouldn't give bin Laden up, and decided to provide him with safe haven. Afghanistan had to be invaded, and I totally supported Bush on that.

    However, Iraq was still the main objective. as the first nation to take down and westernize, according to PNAC philosophy. Syria, Iran, and others were also on the list, but Iraq was the starting point. Afghanistan was abandoned so that the Neocon plan could move forward.

    This had nothing to do with Saddam being a bad guy. It also had nothing to do with oil, as many of the Liberals claim. It all had to do with cementing America as the lone superpower in the world, after the fall of Russia. Once accomplished, according to PNAC documents, America would be the world's ONLY power for a whole century, hence the name "Project for the New American Century".

    The Iraq War was fought for ideology, nothing more. It was fought for a hairbrained ideology that was so full of holes it had no real chance to succeed. Did our leaders actually lie in their attempt to implement their radical ideas? Not exactly, but they did cherry pick their intel to justify going into Iraq, using forged documents and a contact known as "Curveball", who was known for stretching the truth, and rejected the mountains of information that showed Saddam has NO weapons of mass destruction, and no nuclear weapons program - Not even "under the rose bushes". While you can't exactly say they lied, they DID use the concept of "Noble Lies", taught by Neocon Leo Strauss at the University of Chicago, and which was one of the pillars of Neocon ideology. It's the same thing, but only worded differently.

    "Noble Lies" is not a new concept. It originated with Plato, developed by Machiavelli, used by both Marx and Engels in their writings, and was also a pillar of Communist thought. Essentially, the concept is that a lie is not really a lie if it is done for a good cause. If the population would not normally go along with what the leaders considered a good plan, then the leaders have a responsibilty to twist the truth, so that the population would follow them. "Noble Lies" was a cornerstone of Neocon ideology. While you can make a case that the administraiton did not technically lie to get us into Iraq, the cherry picking of information, that is, picking the bad info and rejecting the good info, amounts to the same thing.

    No, Iraq was not fought for oil, nor because Saddam was a bad guy. It wasn't even fought because Saddam wanted to kill Bush's father. It was fought over a hair brained ideology espoused by a group that was madder than hatters.

    Having said all that, this does not reflect badly on the military, which is in place to keep America safe. Misuse of the military by the leaders does not make the military bad. It only makes those who misuse the military bad, and those who fought in Iraq are just as honorable as those who have fought in any other war. They bleed and die for the rest of us.

    Thank you for your service.
    Oh for Christ's sake, stop peddling the same bs all the time, will you? You never read Strauss (couldn't even name him correctly), you hardly read any of the Kristol family's writing (attributing the wrong writing and the wrong ideas to the wrong people), you don't know how small PNAC was (William Kristol and a few employees sending out faxes to people who were generally already in belief of what needed to be done), and you sound like a rehash of Anne Norton and Shadia Drury and I doubt you even read them. Every time we go over this, you disappear, and I see you saying stuff like this in another thread.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 02-12-10 at 02:55 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I don't know whether to laugh at the idiocy or cry at the likihood of hyper partisan liberals buying it.
    You have no idea...

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/news-2...post1058549780

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    On the contrary -- the humanitarian argument regarding the peopel of Iraq was in place before the war. It was, at the minimum, mentioned in both the 2002 resolutuon and the 2003 state of the union address.
    Are you saying that the Bush Administration went on a humanitarian mission shortly after the tragic events of 9/11? I hope you are not, because that is beyond insane. As if the American population would agree to something like that after experiencing the worst attack ever on home soil.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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