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Thread: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Yet Rwanda remained mostly ignored, where the situation was about as dire as it gets. What happened there made Saddam look like a pussy cat. So why was Iraq "chosen"? Great that Iraq has rid itself of Saddam, but is it worth it to the American people who have funded all of this and lost many lives in the process? And that it will be a responsibility to the US for many many year to come?
    "Yet Rwanda"...and if we were in Rwanda it would be "Yet ________".
    If you cannot morally support a war against Saddam, who can you support one against? How many of his own citizens does a dictator needs to kill before you believe its ok to move in. You must have a number in mind, since Rwandan deaths are more important than Iraqi ones.

    Iraq simply provides more opportunities for progress in the ME, than does Rwanda progressing the continent of Africa. We already had bases staged in the area from the first gulf war. Logistically, Iraq made a ton of sense as far as staging for the war as well as geo-political influence. Besides, there are plenty of European countries sitting around not doing anything of value with regards to human rights outside their own borders. Where is your ire for their non-activity in Rwanda, Darfur, Myannmar, etc.... Or are your criticisms only for whenever the US acts, or doesn't?

    At least we do something, which is more than the rest of the piggybackers can claim.
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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    The Obama administration is going to oversee the entire withdrawal. If anything goes wrong with it then I'm quite sure the Republicans are going to be blaming it on Obama, so if his administration are the ones overseeing it and all goes smoothly, they also get the credit for it. It's how it works.

    Bush gets credit for the surge and it's effectiveness, even though I never thought from the beginning that we belonged there. But Obama gets the credit if everything goes alright with the withdrawal. It requires alot more than just bussing home a bunch of soldiers. People don't seem to be thinking of the difficulties of bringing home that many troops safely, and if they do it successfully, then he should be able to brag on it all he pleases.

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    The Obama administration is going to oversee the entire withdrawal. If anything goes wrong with it then I'm quite sure the Republicans are going to be blaming it on Obama, so if his administration are the ones overseeing it and all goes smoothly, they also get the credit for it. It's how it works.

    Bush gets credit for the surge and it's effectiveness, even though I never thought from the beginning that we belonged there. But Obama gets the credit if everything goes alright with the withdrawal. It requires alot more than just bussing home a bunch of soldiers. People don't seem to be thinking of the difficulties of bringing home that many troops safely, and if they do it successfully, then he should be able to brag on it all he pleases.
    If obama continues the phased withdrawal he's following bush's original plan, not his.

    source

    Obama calls for the immediate withdrawal of US combat troops from IraqLast updated at 15:16 12 September 2007

    Barack Obama has called for the immediate withdrawal of all US combat brigades from Iraq
    Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama has called for the immediate withdrawal of all US combat brigades from Iraq, with the pullout being completed by the end of next year.
    "Let me be clear: There is no military solution in Iraq and there never was," said Obama.
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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    The Obama administration is going to oversee the entire withdrawal. If anything goes wrong with it then I'm quite sure the Republicans are going to be blaming it on Obama, so if his administration are the ones overseeing it and all goes smoothly, they also get the credit for it. It's how it works.
    Ironic, giving The Obama credit for something he opposed at every juncture, and 'succeeded' only in not screwing up what GWB had in place when he left office.

    Even MORE ironic in that the above is a "Great achievement".

    All of this points at how desperate The Obamanation is for grood news.

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    The Obama administration is going to oversee the entire withdrawal. If anything goes wrong with it then I'm quite sure the Republicans are going to be blaming it on Obama, so if his administration are the ones overseeing it and all goes smoothly, they also get the credit for it. It's how it works.

    Bush gets credit for the surge and it's effectiveness, even though I never thought from the beginning that we belonged there. But Obama gets the credit if everything goes alright with the withdrawal. It requires alot more than just bussing home a bunch of soldiers. People don't seem to be thinking of the difficulties of bringing home that many troops safely, and if they do it successfully, then he should be able to brag on it all he pleases.
    But do you not realize that the withdrawal was planned and initiated by Bush? I would agree that if something went wrong, and Obama made some kind of change to the plan that improved it, he would deserve credit for that. But so far he has not. When military advisors recommended a surge strategy in Afghanistan, he only partially implemented it. I don't think he deserves much credit for that either.
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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Yes, Iraq had the benefit of getting rid of a tyranical dictator that killed many of his own people. Are there worse out there? Yes.

    However, I'll be realistic and say the things that a lot of people won't because it'll be painted as wholey horrible thing.

    There's three reasons Iraq was a better choice at the time than something like Rhwonda...

    First, in the scope of how George Bush laid out the goals of the War on Terror...namely that it was aimed at countries who had state sponsored terror, not necessarily against the U.S. but in general...Iraq fit that bill.

    Second, while there is great arguments over the legitimitacy of the claims, thre was at least SOME legal grounds based on dozens of U.N. resolutions that threatened force if Saddam ever violated them. While yes, there are arguments on whether or not those could apply, going into anywhere else wouldn't have even HAD an argument, which would put it a step behind Iraq.

    Three, there was American defense interests in invading Iraq that wouldn't be present in something like Darfur or Rhwonda. The 1993 WTC Bombings, the Embassy Bombings, the Khobar Towers, the U.S.S. Cole, and 9/11 made it abundantly clear that radicalized islam was a threat to this country and if we did not take their declared war on us at least somewhat seriously that problems would continue as would the escalation. Additionally, a stout ally of the U.S. in Israel had the rhetoric against it being ratcheted up for some time. Having a potential friendly allied nation of decent size in the center of the Middle East where we could potentially have bases and perform operations out of, if necessary, was of strategic advantage to the United States and deterent defense. This goes beyond simply the notion of placing a democracy in the Middle East would somehow "spread that", which indeed was a goal, but I believe the more important goal was to establish a potential ally in the region that current housed potentially the most tangable threat to the United States at the time.

    When those things taken together along with disposing of a ruthless dictator, it is not truly hard to see why if given the choice between Iraq or Darfur or Rhwonda that Iraq was chosen. That is not me saying it is the correct choice, or necessarily that the war was right or justified, but simply stating that because it fit into the scope of the activity we engaged in after 2001, we had at least some foundation for a legitimate right to enter, and because it had some potentially legitimate strategic interests that there were legitimate reasons why to choose it over other places in Africa.

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    If obama continues the phased withdrawal he's following bush's original plan, not his.
    Bush didn't leave plans of how to bring back every single soldier out of Iraq. He left deadlines and general guidelines percentage wise how many should come out and when. The actual planning of when each individual group of soldiers are sent home will be planned under the Obama administration.

    I just don't understand why some people go out and actively seek stuff to bitch about, lol.

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by gopman View Post
    But do you not realize that the withdrawal was planned and initiated by Bush? I would agree that if something went wrong, and Obama made some kind of change to the plan that improved it, he would deserve credit for that. But so far he has not. When military advisors recommended a surge strategy in Afghanistan, he only partially implemented it. I don't think he deserves much credit for that either.
    Either joe misspoke or this administration is getting ansy about its noticable lack of accomplishments.
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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    Bush didn't leave plans of how to bring back every single soldier out of Iraq.
    The President doesnt directly issue operational orders or decide the particulars of operational issues, and so if this is your argument, neither does The Obama.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 02-12-10 at 02:04 PM.

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yes, Iraq had the benefit of getting rid of a tyranical dictator that killed many of his own people. Are there worse out there? Yes.

    However, I'll be realistic and say the things that a lot of people won't because it'll be painted as wholey horrible thing.

    There's three reasons Iraq was a better choice at the time than something like Rhwonda...

    First, in the scope of how George Bush laid out the goals of the War on Terror...namely that it was aimed at countries who had state sponsored terror, not necessarily against the U.S. but in general...Iraq fit that bill.

    Second, while there is great arguments over the legitimitacy of the claims, thre was at least SOME legal grounds based on dozens of U.N. resolutions that threatened force if Saddam ever violated them. While yes, there are arguments on whether or not those could apply, going into anywhere else wouldn't have even HAD an argument, which would put it a step behind Iraq.

    Three, there was American defense interests in invading Iraq that wouldn't be present in something like Darfur or Rhwonda. The 1993 WTC Bombings, the Embassy Bombings, the Khobar Towers, the U.S.S. Cole, and 9/11 made it abundantly clear that radicalized islam was a threat to this country and if we did not take their declared war on us at least somewhat seriously that problems would continue as would the escalation. Additionally, a stout ally of the U.S. in Israel had the rhetoric against it being ratcheted up for some time. Having a potential friendly allied nation of decent size in the center of the Middle East where we could potentially have bases and perform operations out of, if necessary, was of strategic advantage to the United States and deterent defense. This goes beyond simply the notion of placing a democracy in the Middle East would somehow "spread that", which indeed was a goal, but I believe the more important goal was to establish a potential ally in the region that current housed potentially the most tangable threat to the United States at the time.

    When those things taken together along with disposing of a ruthless dictator, it is not truly hard to see why if given the choice between Iraq or Darfur or Rhwonda that Iraq was chosen. That is not me saying it is the correct choice, or necessarily that the war was right or justified, but simply stating that because it fit into the scope of the activity we engaged in after 2001, we had at least some foundation for a legitimate right to enter, and because it had some potentially legitimate strategic interests that there were legitimate reasons why to choose it over other places in Africa.
    Exactly! Deposing dictators in Rwanda or Zimbabwe would do a lot to stabilize that region, but fortunately for whatever reason that region doesn't produce many terrorists that threaten the US. Certainly not relative to the Middle East.

    You would think the UN would want to remove those dictators in Africa, but I guess they're too busy saving the world from global warming.
    If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand.
    - Milton Friedman

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