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Thread: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    That is what must happen for it to succeed, especially when looking at history. But I'd change years to decades.
    Yes, decades.

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    What would have to happen in order for you--or others--to consider Iraq a success (or, as some like to put it, a win)? Is it who is defeated? Freedom of the people? What to you, would be considered a win?
    As long as Iraq remains a functioning democracy we can consider it a success in my book, regardless of whether or not we leave troops there for years or decades. I imagine we will maintain a permanent peace-time presence in Iraq as we do in Japan and Europe. Which is fine by me.

    I'm not interested in a "win" as in we all come home and circle jerk each other. I consider that in the long term, the Iraqi people live freer and elect their representatives to be more successful than leaving them under the control of a murderous dictator.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    As long as Iraq remains a functioning democracy we can consider it a success in my book, regardless of whether or not we leave troops there for years or decades. I imagine we will maintain a permanent peace-time presence in Iraq as we do in Japan and Europe. Which is fine by me.

    I'm not interested in a "win" as in we all come home and circle jerk each other. I consider that in the long term, the Iraqi people live freer and elect their representatives to be more successful than leaving them under the control of a murderous dictator.
    And in the process, become more like Turkey than Iran or Palestine. How many Turkish terrorists have you heard of?
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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    I'm not interested in a "win" as in we all come home and circle jerk each other. I consider that in the long term, the Iraqi people live freer and elect their representatives to be more successful than leaving them under the control of a murderous dictator.
    Yet Rwanda remained mostly ignored, where the situation was about as dire as it gets. What happened there made Saddam look like a pussy cat. So why was Iraq "chosen"? Great that Iraq has rid itself of Saddam, but is it worth it to the American people who have funded all of this and lost many lives in the process? And that it will be a responsibility to the US for many many year to come?
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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by kansaswhig View Post
    There are some families that would disagree with you.
    I agree. No soldier should ever be sent into harm's way, except as a last resort. However, having said that, I will give Bush the credit for the troop surge. He broke Iraq with his original invasion, and the surge did a lot to clean up the mess we created over there. You can't just break a nation and then leave. On taking a step that really helped to clean up the mess that was created, hats off to Bush.
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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Yet Rwanda remained mostly ignored, where the situation was about as dire as it gets. What happened there made Saddam look like a pussy cat. So why was Iraq "chosen"? Great that Iraq has rid itself of Saddam, but is it worth it to the American people who have funded all of this and lost many lives in the process? And that it will be a responsibility to the US for many many year to come?



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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I strongly disagree with you. If we are going to be the world's policeman, then why don't we go to Rwanda? The leaders there make Saddam look like a boy scout. Why don't we invade ALL the places in the world where torture and mass murder run rampant? We just don't. Why? We don't have the resources.

    So what was it with Iraq? Sure, Saddam was an asshole, but that was just a cover for the real reason, which was thought of by the Neocon think tank "Project for the New American Century". PNAC was put together as a result of a paper, written by Dick Cheney, called "Rebuilding America's Defenses", which detailed invading Middle East Nations and installing American-like governments in them. The Middle East has always been one of the most strategic places in the world in which to project power. Eventually, the plan was to overthrow seven nations in five years, starting with Iraq.

    When 911 happened, Afghanistan was moved to the top of the list because we had to take out the Taliban for what they did. Before 911, the Taliban were actually close friends of the Administration. Hell, they were right here in Houston in the spring of 2001, meeting with Bush administration figures. 911 changed all these negotiations, because the Taliban wouldn't give bin Laden up, and decided to provide him with safe haven. Afghanistan had to be invaded, and I totally supported Bush on that.

    However, Iraq was still the main objective. as the first nation to take down and westernize, according to PNAC philosophy. Syria, Iran, and others were also on the list, but Iraq was the starting point. Afghanistan was abandoned so that the Neocon plan could move forward.

    This had nothing to do with Saddam being a bad guy. It also had nothing to do with oil, as many of the Liberals claim. It all had to do with cementing America as the lone superpower in the world, after the fall of Russia. Once accomplished, according to PNAC documents, America would be the world's ONLY power for a whole century, hence the name "Project for the New American Century".

    The Iraq War was fought for ideology, nothing more. It was fought for a hairbrained ideology that was so full of holes it had no real chance to succeed. Did our leaders actually lie in their attempt to implement their radical ideas? Not exactly, but they did cherry pick their intel to justify going into Iraq, using forged documents and a contact known as "Curveball", who was known for stretching the truth, and rejected the mountains of information that showed Saddam has NO weapons of mass destruction, and no nuclear weapons program - Not even "under the rose bushes". While you can't exactly say they lied, they DID use the concept of "Noble Lies", taught by Neocon Leo Strauss at the University of Chicago, and which was one of the pillars of Neocon ideology. It's the same thing, but only worded differently.

    "Noble Lies" is not a new concept. It originated with Plato, developed by Machiavelli, used by both Marx and Engels in their writings, and was also a pillar of Communist thought. Essentially, the concept is that a lie is not really a lie if it is done for a good cause. If the population would not normally go along with what the leaders considered a good plan, then the leaders have a responsibilty to twist the truth, so that the population would follow them. "Noble Lies" was a cornerstone of Neocon ideology. While you can make a case that the administraiton did not technically lie to get us into Iraq, the cherry picking of information, that is, picking the bad info and rejecting the good info, amounts to the same thing.

    No, Iraq was not fought for oil, nor because Saddam was a bad guy. It wasn't even fought because Saddam wanted to kill Bush's father. It was fought over a hair brained ideology espoused by a group that was madder than hatters.

    Having said all that, this does not reflect badly on the military, which is in place to keep America safe. Misuse of the military by the leaders does not make the military bad. It only makes those who misuse the military bad, and those who fought in Iraq are just as honorable as those who have fought in any other war. They bleed and die for the rest of us.

    Thank you for your service.
    If I were you I'd write my congressman and suggest we attack Rwanda.
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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Yet Rwanda remained mostly ignored, where the situation was about as dire as it gets. What happened there made Saddam look like a pussy cat. So why was Iraq "chosen"? Great that Iraq has rid itself of Saddam, but is it worth it to the American people who have funded all of this and lost many lives in the process? And that it will be a responsibility to the US for many many year to come?
    So when is the Canadian military going to spring into action and take care of that mess?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    And you think this democracy is stable enough to grow and flourish when the troops pull out?
    The obama administration does.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

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    Re: Joe Biden update: Iraq one of Obama's 'great achievements'

    Screw rwanda. It's my understanding there have been 7 million casualties incurred in the ongoing civil war in the congo. Any of you people willing to send american troops into that mess?..................Anybody?
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

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