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Thread: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

  1. #51
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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Hawkish libertarian: Instapundit

    Anyways, SD, your views on what a conservative is is kind of odd. I wouldn't say that all of them don't advocate separation of church and state at all levels of government;
    I did not say that all conservatives are against the constitutional principle of a separation of church and state. However, I would imagine that most do not take the liberal and libertarian views on it. Just look through the archives on this forum when the subject has came up before, and you will notice that most self identified conservatives on here were against federal court rulings that banned religious monuments in courthouses and other government buildings.

    I also think that many social conservatives - probably most, really - would be fine with leaving social issues to the state level.
    Then why have they fought them at the national level for so long then? Even if they could be convinced to simply pursue these issues at the state and local level, they would still inevitably come into conflict with liberals and libertarians because even if your using the state government to promote, endorse, or compel religious beliefs, or to legislate morality, you are still trying to use the government to further a religious agenda or legislate morality. Thus, liberals and libertarians are still going to take to the federal courts, and its thus you are back to trying to fight this at the national level.

    Right now you have Texas Social Conservatives trying to use the state's public school system to further their evangelical Christian beliefs. Even though those social conservatives are working at the state level, do you honestly think that it wont eventually be litigated in the federal court system?

    And libertarians do sometimes disagree with conservatives when it comes to privacy and religious issues, but that is as ambiguous as I said everthing but drugs and gay marriage is.
    Privacy and a separation of church and state are core to civil liberties, its not something that will be glossed over.
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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Ron Paul is a self-hating kook and he is no leader of the Tea Party movement. As a matter of fact, most Tea Party participants despise his radical leftwing Marxist views of American foreign policy, his compulsive vilification of America, and his conspiratorial view of America's intentions.

    Moreover, if Ron Paul truly is the leader of the Tea Party movement, he most certainly would have received far more political support during the 2008 presidential elections than he did. However, most people including most Tea Party participants today see him for what he is, a bona fide and certified kook.

    Finally, I resent Ron Paul kooks trying to hijack the Tea Party movement by vilifying everyone and anyone they disagree with as neo-cons. In fact, Ron Paul kooks are not members of the Tea Party movement, they are instead just kooks!

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by cryptogenic View Post
    Traditional conservatives, like Ron Paul, are against welfare and an expanding central gov't while neo-cons find themselves supporting those causes if it helps them politically.
    When neo-cons try to take over theses tea parties just to get their name in the press (see Palin) it bastardizes their original intent and devalues the tea party movement as a whole
    Excuse me, but Ron Paul is not a traditional conservative. He is a self loathing kook!

    Traditional conservatives, of course, champion smaller and less government, but also traditional conservatives are not self hating loons like Ron Paul and never vilify and demonize America and American foreign policy the same way that only Ron Paul and fellow Ron Paul kooks do. They all deserve to be marginalized, because they are kooks.

    Moreover, I don't buy into the neo-conservative mantra, as, for instance, with the exceptions of religion and maybe tax cuts, there was nothing conservative about GWB. He was a progressive big government liberal from the very get go, and he surrounded himself with other progressive big government liberals.

    He was also blinded by political correct multiculturalism exactly like the left, which is why he got so sidetracked in Afghanistan and jumped into the middle of a civil war in a very misguided fantasy based nation building mission to lift up Muslims out of poverty in an idiotic attempt to win their hearts and minds, which is absolutely impossible since Muslims are obligated to hate our guts, per their religion, no matter what.

    Had he eradicated OBL and AQ ONLY instead and then left Afghanistan ASAP after the mission was accomplished leaving behind our death and destruction to serve as deterrence, he would have been a hero in America's eyes and obviously a traditional conservative. But he didn't and he wasn't.

    Likewise, if he had got us out of Iraq, as soon as Iraq was scoured for WMD and Saddam was captured, instead of occupying the country like a loon to pursue another silly fantasy based nation building mission to lift up Muslims out of poverty and win their hearts and minds, which again is absolutely impossible, he would have not only created deterrence, but also at the same time demonstrated that he was a traditional conservative.

    Moreover, if he would have eradicated the ruling Mullahs in Iran, their Syrian poodles, and obliterated the House of Saud instead of bogging us down for nothing in Iraq and Afghanistan, today he would be seen as one of the greatest of American Presidents.

    Instead, I consider GWB to be the Jimmy Carter of the Republican Party, and he and another progressive, Juan McPane, were the reasons that I did not vote in the last presidential election, as I refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils any longer because it enables the progressives to hijack and co-opt the Republican Party.

    In fact, every time the Republican Party puts up another progressive for national office, from now own I will hold my nose and vote for what is considered to be the most evil, as I'm far more angry about the hijacking of the Republican Party by leftwing progressives than I am about the election of another leftwing loon like Barack Insane Obama.

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Rove View Post
    Ron Paul is a self-hating kook and he is no leader of the Tea Party movement. As a matter of fact, most Tea Party participants despise his radical leftwing Marxist views of American foreign policy, his compulsive vilification of America, and his conspiratorial view of America's intentions.

    Moreover, if Ron Paul truly is the leader of the Tea Party movement, he most certainly would have received far more political support during the 2008 presidential elections than he did. However, most people including most Tea Party participants today see him for what he is, a bona fide and certified kook.

    Finally, I resent Ron Paul kooks trying to hijack the Tea Party movement by vilifying everyone and anyone they disagree with as neo-cons. In fact, Ron Paul kooks are not members of the Tea Party movement, they are instead just kooks!
    So what you are saying, is that as a conservative, there is no way you could compromise your beliefs enough to accommodate a libertarian like Ron Paul?
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I did not say that all conservatives are against the constitutional principle of a separation of church and state. However, I would imagine that most do not take the liberal and libertarian views on it. Just look through the archives on this forum when the subject has came up before, and you will notice that most self identified conservatives on here were against federal court rulings that banned religious monuments in courthouses and other government buildings.
    That's really a non-issue though.


    Then why have they fought them at the national level for so long then? Even if they could be convinced to simply pursue these issues at the state and local level, they would still inevitably come into conflict with liberals and libertarians because even if your using the state government to promote, endorse, or compel religious beliefs, or to legislate morality, you are still trying to use the government to further a religious agenda or legislate morality. Thus, liberals and libertarians are still going to take to the federal courts, and its thus you are back to trying to fight this at the national level.

    Right now you have Texas Social Conservatives trying to use the state's public school system to further their evangelical Christian beliefs. Even though those social conservatives are working at the state level, do you honestly think that it wont eventually be litigated in the federal court system?
    Huh? You're contradicting yourself. First you say that social conservatives are fighting social issues at the national level, then you say that they're actually fighting it at the state level, and it's brought to the federal level by liberals and libertarians. So which is it?

    Privacy and a separation of church and state are core to civil liberties, its not something that will be glossed over.
    Pretty much everyone agrees on the two concepts being important; what they disagree on are the details of what they actually mean.

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by cryptogenic View Post
    I think the real point is that Ron Paul is often credited with reawakening Libertarianism and constitutionalism during the last election, with that movement leading into these tea parties and the ideals of that movement are being exploited for political gain by people who haven't necessarily conformed to those ideals in the past.
    You are confusing Ron Paul Kookism with the Tea Party movement. Most Tea Party members see Ron Paul for what he really is, a self-loathing kook that pandered to 9/11 Truthers and other conspiracy kooks for political support and the only thing Ron Paul can be credited with is trying to mainstream kookism.

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    That's really a non-issue though.
    To you it is. However, you are pretty sheltered if you think its not a huge issue to millions of religious and social conservatives out there.

    Huh? You're contradicting yourself. First you say that social conservatives are fighting social issues at the national level, then you say that they're actually fighting it at the state level, and it's brought to the federal level by liberals and libertarians. So which is it?
    They are fighting these issues at all levels of government. My point is that even if you could some how convince them to fight them only at the state and local level, they are going to wind up being fought at the national level anyway.

    Pretty much everyone agrees on the two concepts being important; what they disagree on are the details of what they actually mean.
    The "details" are what differentiate a Bernie Sanders and Jim Demint. The details are always what the battles are fought about.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    So what you are saying, is that as a conservative, there is no way you could compromise your beliefs enough to accommodate a libertarian like Ron Paul?


    The Libertarians I know don't vilify and demonize American foreign policy the same way that Ron Paul, 9/11 Truthers, and other conspiratorial kooks do. Thus, I don't see Ron Paul as a bona fide Libertarian, but instead as the self-hating kook he is.

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Rove View Post
    The Libertarians I know don't vilify and demonize American foreign policy the same way that Ron Paul, 9/11 Truthers, and other conspiratorial kooks do. Thus, I don't see Ron Paul as a bona fide Libertarian, but instead as the self-hating kook he is.
    Thank you. Dav, Zyphlin, I think this sufficiently proves my point.
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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Thank you. Dav, Zyphlin, I think this sufficiently proves my point.
    I think this whole thread just cleared up for me while Ron Paul only got 10% of vote in the primaries.
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