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Thread: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Watering the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots & tyrants?

    That's crazy talk to a liberal like you.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Yea, Americans who disagree with Obama should just sit down and shut up like good peasants. How dare they presume to involve themselves in the political process whilst the Messiah graces the Oval Office!
    Way to totally distort that comment. How does saying that the Tea Party Movement is a group of loosely connected people dissatisfied with government who aren't as popular as some media outlets make them out to be equate to telling those people to sit down and shut up? It doesn't. And it's not Obama that pushes them out of the political process but rather our electoral process.

    The one thing that all Tea Party movements can agree on is that they don't like Obama and the Democrats in the White House and with control of Congress. However, if you ask 10 different tea partiers what they are for you'll get 10 different answers. If you ask those same 10 different tea partiers how to implement their policies, you'll get 30 different answers.

    All of the tea partiers and tea baggers are conservative, there's no denying this. But what kind of conservative are they? There's paleo-conservatives, neo-conservatives, libertarian conservatives, social conservatives, fiscal conservatives, and religious conservatives, just to name a few. Currently, they have less representation in a Democratic-controlled Congress and they are pissed about it.

    But here's the key issue that they are waking up to: even though these people are a type of conservative, they do not necessarily get representation in a Republican-controlled Congress either.

    This is because of our plurality voting system, which naturally leads to a two-party system. A two-party system is created in an electoral system that requires whoever gets the most votes wins the position. This means that the different conservatives must all duke it out amongst themselves to see which form of conservatism will win out and take control of the conservative party; the same goes for the liberal party. On the surface, it looks like either conservatives or liberals come to power in government, but in truth what happens is a faction of conservatives win out to lead the rest of the conservatives and a faction of liberals win out to lead the rest of the liberals. It causes factions that are slightly different from each other not to receive representation in government, which prevents people who ascribe to those factions' policies from being heard in government.

    This is why we need to institute some kind of system that allows for a multi-party system, so all the different kinds of conservatism can get representation proportional to the people who ascribe to the different factions of conservatism and of liberalism. If we don't and we keep going the way we do, then all sorts of politicians will seek the endorsements of movements like the Tea Parties just to get their name out and get more people to vote for them, whether or not they really represent the interests of those movements.

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Could you point out what specific agenda items of the Tea Party movement is "not conservative"?
    Ron Paul's just throwing a hissy fit cause the Tea Party movement isn't falling in exactly as he believes they should. No deviation allowed.

    The TP Movement is a fluid thing, and it moves as to the whims of those that cheer it on, that rally for it.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    That's crazy talk to a liberal like you.
    No. It's crazy talk to most people.

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Gay marriage is pretty much the only issue where conservatives and libertarians consistently disagree. Maybe drugs too.

    Everything else is more ambiguous. There are pro-life libertarians; Ron Paul is one of them. There are plenty of hawkish libertarians as well.
    I disagree. Yes, there are plenty of pro-life libertarians. I don't know of any truly hawkish libertarians though. The libertarian position on defense ranges between complete isolationism to non-interventionism. Either way, they see defense spending as a magnet for corruption in government.

    Libertarians believe that your rights ultimately are based in the principle of self ownership and because you own you, your right to live your life extends so far as to not impede the ability of another individual to do the same. The notion that the rights of man stem from self ownership is incompatible with social and religious conservatism. In fact, its heretical to them.

    Libertarians are strong proponents of a separation between church and state. That is a view that many conservatives do not share. Most libertarians believe that your constitutional protections extends to all levels of government. Many conservatives believe it largely only applies to the federal government. For example, its a fairly common conservative argument that the prohibition against the government promoting or enforcing religious beliefs only applies to the federal government. That is certainly not an argument you will hear too many libertarians make. Libertarians by and large agree with the positions of the ACLU, conservatives on the other hand despise them.

    So when you get down to it, there is pretty big divide between conservatism in the United States and libertarianism in the U.S.
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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    What I see here is a bunch of nit-pickers trying to find people like themselves. Ever heard the saying "Sometimes I think everybody is crazy but me and you and sometimes I wonder about you"?. At least the Tea Party goers are not trying to keep Obama in office.

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    Wow, why don't you tell us how you really feel I knew I could get your goat but not like this........I will take a little time to digest this and unfortunately the Scotch on the Rocks are getting to me..........I will say that contrary to what you say there are a lot of people in here that are friends of mine and call themselves Conservatives and agree with me on most issues and vice versa..........We fight the good fight against radical liberalism every day because unlike you we believe it is a serious issue and could destroy this country....
    Sorry, I don't have such little respect for this country that I think a few politicians are going to "Destroy" it.

    I am sorry I don't meet your standards as a Conservative and you think I am a neo con but that could not be further from the truth...I just love to pull the strings of these Liberals and sometimes go a little overboard doing so.....The people that count here know that........
    And this actually proves my point, 100% Navy. You don't READ anything. You see a post, see a few words you disagree with, and then IMMEDIATELY begin to stereotype the person as "A liberal" and then just ASSUME what they're saying. The following quotes are from the above quotes

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Now, I don't agree with Dana, that somehow this is a vile beast that is wholey non-conservative.
    You are a conservative
    I disagree with Dana, that doesn't make you a conservative.
    Note, every single one of them is me saying YOU ARE A CONSERVATIVE. However, unlike you who mindlessly labels ANYONE that disagrees with you on something your "Left wing friend" or a "Phony Conservative" i understand that there are various variations of Conservatives, and I expressed my belief of what kind you are based on the things you actually say.

    You are not the end all, be all, definitive example of a Conservative that if people don't follow 100% they're somehow a "liberal" despite your asinine and frankly rude constant use of "my left wing friend".

    Mr. V, you're, Paul is annoyed that the Tea Party movement is seeming to move away from its roots to a more stereotypical "2000's republican" message. I'm equally annoyed. If it continues down that path I think the chance of it helping to balance the party and have the potential for sustained national success that is actually meaningful because its not just "Democrat Lite" is going to be reduced to nil. For a while this movement was a chance for a BALANCED Republican platform whose focus was on all conservatism, if not a bit more on fiscal and governmental, then typical dividing factors such as "OMG SOCIALIST" and "HE'S A NAZI" and social factors. It was likely to pull in people who wouldn't cause us to have to choose between "Horrible Spending, Constitution destroying Liberals or Slightly Less Horrible Spending, Constitution destroying Conservative". If it majorly continues down the trend of simply being molded into the typical "2000's republican" then yeah...I'll be extremely annoyed myself.

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I disagree. Yes, there are plenty of pro-life libertarians. I don't know of any truly hawkish libertarians though.
    Funnily enough this is how my dad referenced himself for the longest time.

    The libertarian position on defense ranges between complete isolationism to non-interventionism. Either way, they see defense spending as a magnet for corruption in government.
    I agree in a general sense, however like the other poster I've known Libertarians who believe in the general "Peace through Strength" philosophy and having a strong military, but disagree with using it in an interventionalist or policing sort of matter and generally are for less spending than your typical Republican but more than your standard libertarian.

    Libertarians believe that your rights ultimately are based in the principle of self ownership and because you own you, your right to live your life extends so far as to not impede the ability of another individual to do the same. The notion that the rights of man stem from self ownership is incompatible with social and religious conservatism. In fact, its heretical to them.
    Actually, if you're going to argue WHERE rights come from I have seen as many libertarians, being the founder worshipers that they stereotypically are, agree with the founders notion along with self ownership. Going forward as well, while I would agree with you that libertarian conservatism finds itself at odds with religious conservatism on social issues due to the way in which religious conservatives seek to push their agenda I would say it does not necessarily conflict completely with social conservatism.

    Look at Ron Paul's stance on abortion, believing its a state issue but at that point being against it and against federal funding for abortion things. Look at their views on immigration which is generally routed in social conservatism and typical is strong on securing of the borders. I wouldn't say its "incompatible" with normal social conservative, but they are generally at best not STRONG social conservatives.

    Libertarians are strong proponents of a separation between church and state. That is a view that many conservatives do not share.
    This is gross stereotyping that really you have no real good indication for, especially because there's argument even within the Libertarian movement and the Republican movement as to what truly constitutes violations of church and state separation.

    Most libertarians believe that your constitutional protections extends to all levels of government. Many conservatives believe it largely only applies to the federal government. For example, its a fairly common conservative argument that the prohibition against the government promoting or enforcing religious beliefs only applies to the federal government.
    How in the world is something you state so "Fairly common" something I've never once seen argued in my time here. Again, I think you're stereotyping, which is what you typically do whenever you can have a chance to insult republicans/conservatives, trying to make relatively more extreme notions out to be common, such as in the past when you tried to act that anything short of near anarchism would mean you're not really conservative.

    That is certainly not an argument you will hear too many libertarians make. Libertarians by and large agree with the positions of the ACLU, conservatives on the other hand despise them.
    Again, I've seen very very few libertarians on this board and that I've known in life and in college actually "By and large" agree with the positions of the ACLU. I've seen then agree with them MORE so than conservatives, but you make it seem that they're almost always in lock step with them which has not been what I've seen personally.

    So when you get down to it, there is pretty big divide between conservatism in the United States and libertarianism in the U.S.
    There is a larger one then the original poster seemed to imply, but not nearly as large of one that you try to show.

    And I think the original poster really hit the nail on the head. This is not a black and white issue as you try to present it. There are a large variation of factions within the Libertarian contingent, and also within the standard Republican contingent. To try and stereotype it to greatly is a bit of a folly imho as I've found out of any political ideology Libertarians seem to have the most variations from member to member than either of the big two, possibly because so many people are driven to it more so out of disenchantment with one of the big two than because of a strong following of every part of the stereotypical philosophical ideology.

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Funnily enough this is how my dad referenced himself for the longest time.

    I agree in a general sense, however like the other poster I've known Libertarians who believe in the general "Peace through Strength" philosophy and having a strong military, but disagree with using it in an interventionalist or policing sort of matter and generally are for less spending than your typical Republican but more than your standard libertarian.
    You do understand that far less spending on defense than a your typical Republican, but more than the standard libertarian, would put them closer to a liberal Democrats beliefs on defense spending, than a Republicans.

    Actually, if you're going to argue WHERE rights come from I have seen as many libertarians, being the founder worshipers that they stereotypically are, agree with the founders notion along with self ownership.
    Many of the founders believed your rights were derived from self ownership. At its core, thats a classical liberal belief.

    Going forward as well, while I would agree with you that libertarian conservatism finds itself at odds with religious conservatism on social issues due to the way in which religious conservatives seek to push their agenda I would say it does not necessarily conflict completely with social conservatism.

    Look at Ron Paul's stance on abortion, believing its a state issue but at that point being against it and against federal funding for abortion things. Look at their views on immigration which is generally routed in social conservatism and typical is strong on securing of the borders. I wouldn't say its "incompatible" with normal social conservative, but they are generally at best not STRONG social conservatives.
    Social conservatives are not going to be cool with simply leaving moral issues up to the states. They have been pursuing the issues at a national level for 30 years now, its not as if they are just going to up and drop it. We are talking about the core moral and religious beliefs of people, they don't tend to change.

    This is gross stereotyping that really you have no real good indication for, especially because there's argument even within the Libertarian movement and the Republican movement as to what truly constitutes violations of church and state separation.
    Its a fairly accurate statement that I made. The majority of libertarians believe that the state is bared from endorsing, promoting, or compelling adherence to religious beliefs. Thats a big difference from the majority conservative view that ranges between the state not being able to favor one religion over another on one end, and the separation of church and state only applying to the federal government on the other.

    How in the world is something you state so "Fairly common" something I've never once seen argued in my time here.
    Anytime you have seen people on here argue that the federal judiciary is being activist when it tells a statehouse it can't put up a ten commandments monument, then you are seeing that argument in action. Similarly, anytime you see people on here argue that the federal judiciary is being activist when it strikes down a law at the state or local level as a violation of the right to privacy, then you are seeing that argument in action.

    Again, I think you're stereotyping, which is what you typically do whenever you can have a chance to insult republicans/conservatives, trying to make relatively more extreme notions out to be common, such as in the past when you tried to act that anything short of near anarchism would mean you're not really conservative.
    When did I insult anyone in that post?

    Again, I've seen very very few libertarians on this board and that I've known in life and in college actually "By and large" agree with the positions of the ACLU.
    The only beef I have ever known a libertarian to have with the ACLU was that the ACLU doesn't take up gun rights causes, and sometimes they involve themselves in affirmative action cases with libertarians see as unconstitutional.


    There is a larger one then the original poster seemed to imply, but not nearly as large of one that you try to show.

    And I think the original poster really hit the nail on the head. This is not a black and white issue as you try to present it. There are a large variation of factions within the Libertarian contingent, and also within the standard Republican contingent.
    Of course there are variations in terms of ideology with libertarians and republicans. There right leaning libertarians, left leaning libertarians, green libertarians and so on. Similarly, there the old Country Club Republicans, social conservatives, libertarian leaning Republicans, and though they are not usually very welcome in the party, moderate Republicans. What you seem to gloss over though is that there are some strong divisions, especially between the social / religious conservatives, and everyone else that is not a liberal Democrat, that prevents them all from becoming a workable coalition.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 02-11-10 at 11:58 AM.
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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Hawkish libertarian: Instapundit

    Anyways, SD, your views on what a conservative is is kind of odd. I wouldn't say that all of them don't advocate separation of church and state at all levels of government; in fact, I would bet that most of them do. I also think that many social conservatives - probably most, really - would be fine with leaving social issues to the state level.

    And libertarians do sometimes disagree with conservatives when it comes to privacy and religious issues, but that is as ambiguous as I said everthing but drugs and gay marriage is.

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