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Thread: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    Let me go back and retrack what I said then.............
    LOL....see I knew there was a sense of humor somewhere under the ole crumudgeon facade of yours.
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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Can anyone point out any specific agenda items of the Tea Party movement at all? Conservative, liberal, whatever. Any specific agenda items at all?

    Thanks in advance.
    The only consistant agenda items I've seen throughout the various tea party movements and presentations has been:

    Low Taxes for all, be they rich or poor
    Reduction of, and fighting against creation of new, entitlement programs such as universal health care
    Fiscal Responsibility when it comes to the debt and deficits.

    Those are three things routinely found within any Tea Party gathering or movement it seems. I would, happily, love to see Dana show how those things aren't conservative and are unamerican, as those are part of their agenda and we're told...according to Dana...that they're agenda is wholey unamerican and non-conservative.

    My issue is not necessarily with Dana's original thesis, that the Tea Parties have been infiltrated by the type of Republicans like Navy Pride who are Big Government, Big Spending, Big Intrusion into our lives type of Republicans that are "Conservative" in a traditional sense only when it benefits them and then rationalizes it away the moment they need to grow the government, spend a ton, or intrude into our personal lives. The very fact that many social issues are beginning to become more important in the Tea Parties is an example of this.

    My issue is with Dana, who apparently is lowering his standards of posting now that he's having to produce blog entry's and seeming thinks he must make ludicrous pronouncements without backing them up, was the over the top exaggerated rhetoric he shoved into his post attempting to prove his point and instead simply made his entire post look like a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Actually, Ron Paul's message is getting through. His son, Rand Paul, is running for Senator on pretty much the same platform as his father did for president.
    Actually, "pretty much" the same is a great way to put it. Here's the thing though, you're FAR under playing the "pretty much" point. Rand is far more pragmatic and realistic in his approach to things and not nearly as keen to go off on conspiratorial tangents or immediately start talking about shooting for extremes in everything he does.

    Final note: The term "Social Conservative" is an oxymoron.
    Since you still haven't addressed my last question concerning your extremely exaggerated blanket point I'm unsure if you'll do it for this but, please, care to explain this wonderful bumper sticker slogan and why you believe it to be true?

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    I get a kick out of some of these so called Conservatives like zyphlin worship at the altar of Ron Paul......The man will do anything for publicity as I said earlier go on that socialist Rachel Maddoe's program on MSNBC......The only thing he can win is that seat from Texas otherwise he is a loser......I get so tired of hearing them worship this loser and now you got the son who is probably a bigger loser.........

    Please my wannabe Conservative friends give it up or you will make a fool of yourselves like you did in 2008...........
    Last edited by Navy Pride; 02-11-10 at 01:54 AM.
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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    I get a kick out of some of these so called Conservatives like zyphlin worship at the altar of Ron Paul......The man will do anything for publicity as I said earlier go on that socialist Rachel Maddoe's program on MSNBC......The only thing he can win is that seat from Texas otherwise he is a loser......I get so tired of hearing them worship this loser and now you got the son who is probably a bigger loser.........

    Please my wannabe Conservative friends give it up or you will make a fool of yourselves like you did in 2008...........
    Navy, this is why no one takes a lot of what you say seriously, because you don't actually make points you just spout whatever comes to mind based on an immediate reaction. Within 5 minutes I could find you a multitude of threads where I've stated my disagreement with Paul, and some of his biggest fans, and why I think he will never, ever, win anything on a national scale and was doomed from the beginning for a variety of factors.

    That said...

    I'm not so blind in my ideology that I define "Conservatism" as whatever makes the most sense when rationalized against the actions of those with (R)'s next to their names today. Paul is a staunch conservative, though at times with far to an extreme and unpragmatic approach to be effective. He did have a number of good messages.

    Yes, truly the loser of conservatism, only able to win a seat in one of the most conservative states in the union...he must really be a socialist!

    Continue to lambast others as "So Called" and "wannabe" conservatives Navy. Please, continue to do so as you push for the Nanny State of the government telling individuals how to run their lives. Please, continue to do so as you justify taking more and more money from China and others as we drive ourselves in debt trying to wage a traditional war vs an untraditional enemy and nation build two separate countries. Please, continue to do so as you continue to support ignoring and tearing up portions of the constitution because its convenient to you while hypocritically are so aggressive when it comes to the 2nd amendment, making it obvious you don't care about the constitution but only the parts you like. Please, continue doing all these things Navy and then calling people who DARE to disagree with those notions your "left wing friend" or "wannabe conservatives" because you're not convincing anyone, you're not causing people to stand up and cheer and go "you know that Navy's right", you're just making people who actually take the time to read peoples posts and not respond on whatever immediate thing being said as if its in its own little bubble laugh at the stupidity of the notion.

    There is no tenet nor principle of conservatism that says one must run around yelling "SOCIALIST!" five times fast about anyone and everyone you disagree with. There is no tenet nor principle of conservatism that says that simply because someone with a (R) next to their name does something its good and someone with a (D) next to it is bad. There is no tenet nor principle of conservatism that says one can not look at previous history, realize and own up to mistakes, and attempt to not make them in the future...on the contrary, that's the very meaning of personal accountability and responsibility. There is no tenet nor principle of conservatism that says you must believe Barack Obama is a muslim, ignorantly and bigotedly try to imply he's Kenyan through backhanded or straight forward ways, or suggest that he's the modern Hitler. There is no tenet nor principle of conservatism that says if you wave the magical "T" word around that suddenly you can ignore the foundations of conservative ideology such as fiscal responsibility, small government, and limited government intrusion.

    You like to talk about people being wannabe conservatives often, yet you never back it up save for your same tired continual rhetoric that boils down to nothing but "You don't do it as I do it so you're not".

    You are the definitive neo-con, in every sense of the word. Now, I don't agree with Dana, that somehow this is a vile beast that is wholey non-conservative. I simply call you "My left wing friend" cause I'm tired of your bull**** calling me and others that when, by using your standard, you would be it too. You are a conservative, greatly social conservative, quasi when it comes to military issues, and only when it benefits you for fiscal and governmental issues. You are so socially conservative that you don't give a care if you have to use the government, and trample upon CONSERVATIVE government principle, to force people into that social norm. You believe in a strong, well funded military, but are hugely into nation building and constant intervention. You are for fiscal conservatism, when it comes to tax cuts or welfare programs...unless your side pushes the program in which case you don't mind...but have no care if we turn around and spend 3 times that amount on war efforts, thus having the same affect with less direct benefit to our citizens. You want a small government that's out of your life, when it comes to social services, yet continually and routinely want every segment of security to be expanded, in size, cost, and ability to intervene in our lives...or more importantly, the lives of people you feel deserve to be prejudiced against.

    You are a neo-con, in every single sense of the word. I disagree with Dana, that doesn't make you a conservative. You are one, just a very strangely twisted one in some cases. You are the mirror image in many ways to the libertarian minded conservative. Yet those individuals, also, are conservatives. As are the paleo-conservatives.

    I'm tired of this idiotic notion of there being a "true" conservative, and especially tired of libertarians telling people continually how somehow they're the "true" conservative. The closest to the claim is a paleo-conservative, and even that varies. Conservatism is a very, very broad ideology that has enough branches that it is possible for people to follow portions and ignore others. The issue however....be it with Libertarians arguing that abortion at the state level should still be kept legal, or neo-cons arguing that pre-emptive intervention and nation building is correct, to the religious right arguing that we need to constitutionally ban gay marriage, to even paleo-conservatives trying to moderate various positions more to the middle....is each individual ideology taking something that is a bit off from traditional conservatism and trying to lecture everyone else about how "no no no, you are doing it 100% wrong and MY way is the only way that a REAL conservative can do it now". Here's the dirty secret...I dare say every single various faction of conservatives, if you find one that can actually articulate that factions ideology well instead of just act like a mindless parrot, can probably justify their view through conservatism in a way that if you are intellectually honest you could at least vaguely see, if not agree with.

    Going back to the Tea Parties....

    As I've stated in another thread, if they can keep the social issues to a minimum, such as immigration, then it will be a good thing. The Tea Parties had begun to bring Fiscal and Governmental conservatism BACK to the forefront and seems to have been starting to rebalanced the table from the past 8 years when it has been the somewhat twisted Neo-Conservative view of "Defense" and social issues as the two giants in the room with the other two towards the back. If it brings BALANCE back to the Republicans it will be a good thing.

    However, if the big social conservatives get control and start interjecting too much of that into it then the chance for balance is going to be lost. Its moving that direction but not there yet.

    That said, this is a loose knit nation wide "movement" that, frankly, is less truly organized in ideology and goals than the "I'm with CoCo" movement. One could go to a tea party focusing almost singularly on fiscal responsibility while another is far more social focused while yet another may be simply anti-establishment in feeling. As a movement grows the "Core" of that movement expands as do those on the edges of it, and more variety enters in diluting the original goals and thoughts of said movement. This is especially true when there is no true leadership.

    This is why the entire notion of "Tea Party" candidates is nothing but a buzz word, an attempt at politicians to harness citizen outrage and action to their best benefit. Brown was a supposed "Tea Party" Candidate yet he'd be viewed likely far differently in a place like Texas or Alabama.

    Its also why Sarah Palin attempting to "lead" the movement bothers me, as she has shown her focus and views to be far less balanced and far from the original intent and focus of the Tea Parties and I truly wonder, if she attempted to "lead" it if she would run with the Tea Parties original message or shape the Tea Parties into HER message. Such a movement likely will never be able to have a true "leader" because frankly it is FAR too diverse and far to segmented from one group to another to truly have a definitive leader. One can simply look at the difference between my experiences with the Tea Parties and Navy's to see that to imply or suggest that there is some kind of extremely large nation wide agenda and unity is ludicrous. At most the few ties that bind is low taxes, no public health care, and attempting to return to a fiscally responsible government...and even that last one is changing from an overall message of responsibility to a neo-con "Responsible unless we say the T word" message in some tea parties.

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I don't buy this "traditional conservatives" stuff. Ron Paul is a libertarian. A libertarian is not the same thing as a conservative, traditional or otherwise.
    Gay marriage is pretty much the only issue where conservatives and libertarians consistently disagree. Maybe drugs too.

    Everything else is more ambiguous. There are pro-life libertarians; Ron Paul is one of them. There are plenty of hawkish libertarians as well. The rest is a matter of degree; for example, only the most extreme libertarians/fiscal conservatives want to eliminate Medicare and welfare in general entirely. On the vast majority of issues, the generic conservative stance and the generic libertarian stance is the same.


    "If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals–if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.

    Now, I can’t say that I will agree with all the things that the present group who call themselves Libertarians in the sense of a party say, because I think that like in any political movement there are shades, and there are libertarians who are almost over at the point of wanting no government at all or anarchy. I believe there are legitimate government functions. There is a legitimate need in an orderly society for some government to maintain freedom or we will have tyranny by individuals. The strongest man on the block will run the neighborhood. We have government to insure that we don’t each one of us have to carry a club to defend ourselves. But again, I stand on my statement that I think that libertarianism and conservatism are travelling the same path." - Ronald Reagan, 1975 Reason interview
    Last edited by Dav; 02-11-10 at 02:42 AM.

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Eh, he might be neoconservative, but Navy is just, well, seemingly not the best of company. To me, there are a great deal of neoconservatives who are brilliant or thoughtful in conversation about a great many things. If we consider David Horowitz to be a demonstration of neoconservative principles, then he can demonstrate some of the least likable qualities of the associated label (like, for instance, why I would be kind of hesitant to ever meet Norm Podhoretz). Navy is like a broken record of Don Rickles.

    Calling him neoconservative is problematic, because a great deal of neoconservatives consider themselves men of the left, but unable to completely subscribe to the label for one reason or another.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 02-11-10 at 02:54 AM.
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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Navy, this is why no one takes a lot of what you say seriously, because you don't actually make points you just spout whatever comes to mind based on an immediate reaction. Within 5 minutes I could find you a multitude of threads where I've stated my disagreement with Paul, and some of his biggest fans, and why I think he will never, ever, win anything on a national scale and was doomed from the beginning for a variety of factors.

    That said...

    I'm not so blind in my ideology that I define "Conservatism" as whatever makes the most sense when rationalized against the actions of those with (R)'s next to their names today. Paul is a staunch conservative, though at times with far to an extreme and unpragmatic approach to be effective. He did have a number of good messages.

    Yes, truly the loser of conservatism, only able to win a seat in one of the most conservative states in the union...he must really be a socialist!

    Continue to lambast others as "So Called" and "wannabe" conservatives Navy. Please, continue to do so as you push for the Nanny State of the government telling individuals how to run their lives. Please, continue to do so as you justify taking more and more money from China and others as we drive ourselves in debt trying to wage a traditional war vs an untraditional enemy and nation build two separate countries. Please, continue to do so as you continue to support ignoring and tearing up portions of the constitution because its convenient to you while hypocritically are so aggressive when it comes to the 2nd amendment, making it obvious you don't care about the constitution but only the parts you like. Please, continue doing all these things Navy and then calling people who DARE to disagree with those notions your "left wing friend" or "wannabe conservatives" because you're not convincing anyone, you're not causing people to stand up and cheer and go "you know that Navy's right", you're just making people who actually take the time to read peoples posts and not respond on whatever immediate thing being said as if its in its own little bubble laugh at the stupidity of the notion.

    There is no tenet nor principle of conservatism that says one must run around yelling "SOCIALIST!" five times fast about anyone and everyone you disagree with. There is no tenet nor principle of conservatism that says that simply because someone with a (R) next to their name does something its good and someone with a (D) next to it is bad. There is no tenet nor principle of conservatism that says one can not look at previous history, realize and own up to mistakes, and attempt to not make them in the future...on the contrary, that's the very meaning of personal accountability and responsibility. There is no tenet nor principle of conservatism that says you must believe Barack Obama is a muslim, ignorantly and bigotedly try to imply he's Kenyan through backhanded or straight forward ways, or suggest that he's the modern Hitler. There is no tenet nor principle of conservatism that says if you wave the magical "T" word around that suddenly you can ignore the foundations of conservative ideology such as fiscal responsibility, small government, and limited government intrusion.

    You like to talk about people being wannabe conservatives often, yet you never back it up save for your same tired continual rhetoric that boils down to nothing but "You don't do it as I do it so you're not".

    You are the definitive neo-con, in every sense of the word. Now, I don't agree with Dana, that somehow this is a vile beast that is wholey non-conservative. I simply call you "My left wing friend" cause I'm tired of your bull**** calling me and others that when, by using your standard, you would be it too. You are a conservative, greatly social conservative, quasi when it comes to military issues, and only when it benefits you for fiscal and governmental issues. You are so socially conservative that you don't give a care if you have to use the government, and trample upon CONSERVATIVE government principle, to force people into that social norm. You believe in a strong, well funded military, but are hugely into nation building and constant intervention. You are for fiscal conservatism, when it comes to tax cuts or welfare programs...unless your side pushes the program in which case you don't mind...but have no care if we turn around and spend 3 times that amount on war efforts, thus having the same affect with less direct benefit to our citizens. You want a small government that's out of your life, when it comes to social services, yet continually and routinely want every segment of security to be expanded, in size, cost, and ability to intervene in our lives...or more importantly, the lives of people you feel deserve to be prejudiced against.

    You are a neo-con, in every single sense of the word. I disagree with Dana, that doesn't make you a conservative. You are one, just a very strangely twisted one in some cases. You are the mirror image in many ways to the libertarian minded conservative. Yet those individuals, also, are conservatives. As are the paleo-conservatives.

    I'm tired of this idiotic notion of there being a "true" conservative, and especially tired of libertarians telling people continually how somehow they're the "true" conservative. The closest to the claim is a paleo-conservative, and even that varies. Conservatism is a very, very broad ideology that has enough branches that it is possible for people to follow portions and ignore others. The issue however....be it with Libertarians arguing that abortion at the state level should still be kept legal, or neo-cons arguing that pre-emptive intervention and nation building is correct, to the religious right arguing that we need to constitutionally ban gay marriage, to even paleo-conservatives trying to moderate various positions more to the middle....is each individual ideology taking something that is a bit off from traditional conservatism and trying to lecture everyone else about how "no no no, you are doing it 100% wrong and MY way is the only way that a REAL conservative can do it now". Here's the dirty secret...I dare say every single various faction of conservatives, if you find one that can actually articulate that factions ideology well instead of just act like a mindless parrot, can probably justify their view through conservatism in a way that if you are intellectually honest you could at least vaguely see, if not agree with.

    Going back to the Tea Parties....

    As I've stated in another thread, if they can keep the social issues to a minimum, such as immigration, then it will be a good thing. The Tea Parties had begun to bring Fiscal and Governmental conservatism BACK to the forefront and seems to have been starting to rebalanced the table from the past 8 years when it has been the somewhat twisted Neo-Conservative view of "Defense" and social issues as the two giants in the room with the other two towards the back. If it brings BALANCE back to the Republicans it will be a good thing.

    However, if the big social conservatives get control and start interjecting too much of that into it then the chance for balance is going to be lost. Its moving that direction but not there yet.

    That said, this is a loose knit nation wide "movement" that, frankly, is less truly organized in ideology and goals than the "I'm with CoCo" movement. One could go to a tea party focusing almost singularly on fiscal responsibility while another is far more social focused while yet another may be simply anti-establishment in feeling. As a movement grows the "Core" of that movement expands as do those on the edges of it, and more variety enters in diluting the original goals and thoughts of said movement. This is especially true when there is no true leadership.

    This is why the entire notion of "Tea Party" candidates is nothing but a buzz word, an attempt at politicians to harness citizen outrage and action to their best benefit. Brown was a supposed "Tea Party" Candidate yet he'd be viewed likely far differently in a place like Texas or Alabama.

    Its also why Sarah Palin attempting to "lead" the movement bothers me, as she has shown her focus and views to be far less balanced and far from the original intent and focus of the Tea Parties and I truly wonder, if she attempted to "lead" it if she would run with the Tea Parties original message or shape the Tea Parties into HER message. Such a movement likely will never be able to have a true "leader" because frankly it is FAR too diverse and far to segmented from one group to another to truly have a definitive leader. One can simply look at the difference between my experiences with the Tea Parties and Navy's to see that to imply or suggest that there is some kind of extremely large nation wide agenda and unity is ludicrous. At most the few ties that bind is low taxes, no public health care, and attempting to return to a fiscally responsible government...and even that last one is changing from an overall message of responsibility to a neo-con "Responsible unless we say the T word" message in some tea parties.
    Wow, why don't you tell us how you really feel I knew I could get your goat but not like this........I will take a little time to digest this and unfortunately the Scotch on the Rocks are getting to me..........I will say that contrary to what you say there are a lot of people in here that are friends of mine and call themselves Conservatives and agree with me on most issues and vice versa..........We fight the good fight against radical liberalism every day because unlike you we believe it is a serious issue and could destroy this country....

    I am sorry I don't meet your standards as a Conservative and you think I am a neo con but that could not be further from the truth...I just love to pull the strings of these Liberals and sometimes go a little overboard doing so.....The people that count here know that........

    I will try and add a little more in and answer to this bull **** tomorrow...

    Have a nice evening......
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Can anyone point out any specific agenda items of the Tea Party movement at all? Conservative, liberal, whatever. Any specific agenda items at all?

    Thanks in advance.
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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You responded to that question giving me a long rambling speech about neo-conservatism and not giving me one single thing from the Tea Parties agenda that is not conservative.

    So no, I'm not making blanket statements. Dana is. I'm asking him, or anyone else, to back it up with something substantial and specific.
    I think the implication is that the "Tea Party" has been co-opted by certain neo-conservative interests; Hannity comes to mind, as well as Palin, though I wouldn't really call her a "neo-con" (neo-cons actually have a coherent view on foreign policy, contentious though it may be) but she is of the same mold; advantageous and opportunistic - a politician.

    I agree that the "true" tea party values are generally conservative, but the fact of the matter is that the tea party is not politically homogeneous; tea-partiers from Chicago are probably different than tea-partiers from Wasilla, so it's not really appropriate to generalize about a "tea party agenda".

    I think it's important to recognize the distinction between certain elements of the tea party. Some of them are just opportunists trying to cash in on populist angst and don't really represent the movement's origins or interests.

    I think Paul has plenty reason to take exception to these political parasites.

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    Re: Ron Paul: ‘Neocon influence’ is infiltrating tea parties

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottD View Post
    The Tea Party movement is an excuse for groups with barely connected ideals to ban together to make themselve's seem more popular. Or at least that is what it has become. The more the Tea Party moves to an actual platform, the less support it will have.
    Yea, Americans who disagree with Obama should just sit down and shut up like good peasants. How dare they presume to involve themselves in the political process whilst the Messiah graces the Oval Office!

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