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Thread: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

  1. #71
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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No. In most cases they were FORCED to enter into contracts, either because the law requires it or because the union monopolized the workforce. Why would the company enter into a union contract voluntarily?
    you make it apparent you are unacquainted with labor provisions
    the employer cannot be forced to enter into any particular contract
    it can be required to participate in good faith at the bargaining table in an attempt to write a contract
    but the terms of any contract are the outcome of bargaining by the parties

    The contract is entirely one-sided.
    the contract is entirely one sided when one of the sides is incompetent
    sometimes that is the description of the union's representatives
    other times it is the employer's representatives who exhibit their ineptitude

    What does a union offer the company that a free market does not?
    the union offers employees who share the interests of the company in a way that employees who know they are easily expendable do not
    it offers employees with a knowledge base; employees who actually do the work of the company. they know where the inefficiencies are
    and relative to unions representing public organizations, the union can provide continuity which might otherwise not be possible
    that is because the public entities are usually headed by political appointees, who stay only for the duration of the term of the elected official who appointed them. they frequently come into an organization knowing little to nothing about the entity they are to head. they often bring with them a retinue of hangers on who also serve at the whim of the elected official. knowing little about what the organization they are to manage does, they frequently insist on doing some of the things they should not. the appointees often make inappropriate, politically motivated decisions an experienced learder would not make
    then the managers, career employees, who report to these appointed officials, must salute and follow their legal orders, no matter how wrongheaded those orders may be
    and the rank and file union members must follow the managers' legal orders - unless the union contract provides for a different way to handle those matters ... such as how to hire people, and how to promote people, and how to solicit contributions. by having a contract specifying what can and cannot be done by the employees, it limits some of the harm that might otherwise be inflicted on the organization and the organization's ethics, by the political appointees

    glad you asked
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  2. #72
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    Re: Great News!

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It's an unethical relationship unless they give up being able to vote and lobby government.
    i am assuming your attempt to offer a point is that the unionized government employee, being able to negotiate for self interest, must deny themself the right to vote or to lobby government
    that makes no sense ... other than the present provision in the federal sector which provides that federal employees cannot lobby in their official capacity. let me note that i disagree with a current provision which exempts from that lobbying prohibition those federal employees who are in their office due to appointment by an elected official; those political appointees are free to both lobby and to campaign for individuals running for office - and do this at public expense
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    you make it apparent you are unacquainted with labor provisions
    the employer cannot be forced to enter into any particular contract
    it can be required to participate in good faith at the bargaining table in an attempt to write a contract
    but the terms of any contract are the outcome of bargaining by the parties


    the contract is entirely one sided when one of the sides is incompetent
    sometimes that is the description of the union's representatives
    other times it is the employer's representatives who exhibit their ineptitude

    the union offers employees who share the interests of the company in a way that employees who know they are easily expendable do not
    it offers employees with a knowledge base; employees who actually do the work of the company. they know where the inefficiencies are
    and relative to unions representing public organizations, the union can provide continuity which might otherwise not be possible
    that is because the public entities are usually headed by political appointees, who stay only for the duration of the term of the elected official who appointed them. they frequently come into an organization knowing little to nothing about the entity they are to head. they often bring with them a retinue of hangers on who also serve at the whim of the elected official. knowing little about what the organization they are to manage does, they frequently insist on doing some of the things they should not. the appointees often make inappropriate, politically motivated decisions an experienced learder would not make
    then the managers, career employees, who report to these appointed officials, must salute and follow their legal orders, no matter how wrongheaded those orders may be
    and the rank and file union members must follow the managers' legal orders - unless the union contract provides for a different way to handle those matters ... such as how to hire people, and how to promote people, and how to solicit contributions. by having a contract specifying what can and cannot be done by the employees, it limits some of the harm that might otherwise be inflicted on the organization and the organization's ethics, by the political appointees

    glad you asked
    A union exists for one reason and one reason alone -- to get its members the most compensation for the least amount of work. Any formulation you want to put on it, it boils down to that.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    What "democratic vote"? Among the employees? If the voters as a whole aren't involved, it's not "democratic."
    not certain what is unfair or undemocratic about a majority of the workers deciding whether they do or do not want to be able to collectively bargain over their working conditions. maybe you can explain it

    And of course, there's the underlying point -- if the government can't even treat its employees well enough so that they need a union, why would we want to cede vast portions of our lives over to it?
    the government is a vast bureaucracy
    is it really that far fetched to recognize that some of the people who manage within that bureaucracy might exploit their authority to the detriment of the subordinate employees and/or the public the agency serves? that reality, that some work locations need fairness enforced by a union, does not mean the government agency is not performing a worthwhile service to the public
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    A union exists for one reason and one reason alone -- to get its members the most compensation for the least amount of work. Any formulation you want to put on it, it boils down to that.
    absolutely wrong
    in the federal sector, the congress determines the rate of pay
    and the employee MUST do whatever they are told to do (the sole two exceptions being if (1) they are told to do something illegal or against regulations, or (2) if they are directed to do something which would place the employee or another person in immediate physical jeopardy). so, the employee MUST perform the work as assigned. if that resulted in a contract violation the union must enforce that violation after the fact
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    not certain what is unfair or undemocratic about a majority of the workers deciding whether they do or do not want to be able to collectively bargain over their working conditions. maybe you can explain it
    Because it makes demands on public service and public funds and the taxpayers have no say in it. Not rocket science there.

    Public service is public service.


    the government is a vast bureaucracy
    is it really that far fetched to recognize that some of the people who manage within that bureaucracy might exploit their authority to the detriment of the subordinate employees and/or the public the agency serves?
    You think they might not do the same when it comes to running your life?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    absolutely wrong
    in the federal sector, the congress determines the rate of pay
    and the employee MUST do whatever they are told to do (the sole two exceptions being if (1) they are told to do something illegal or against regulations, or (2) if they are directed to do something which would place the employee or another person in immediate physical jeopardy). so, the employee MUST perform the work as assigned. if that resulted in a contract violation the union must enforce that violation after the fact
    That did not contradict anything I said.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Because it makes demands on public service and public funds and the taxpayers have no say in it. Not rocket science there.

    Public service is public service.
    certainly the taxpayers have a say in it. thru the representatives they have elected. and you are correct, that's civics 101, not rocket surgery


    You think they might not do the same when it comes to running your life?
    you seem not to be able to distinguish the rights of a citizen from those obligations as an employee
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    certainly the taxpayers have a say in it. thru the representatives they have elected. and you are correct, that's civics 101, not rocket surgery
    No, not when the unions are setting the wage scale. If it's not possible for them do so, then what good would they be?


    you seem not to be able to distinguish the rights of a citizen from those obligations as an employee
    That's just a dodge which doesn't address the point.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    That did not contradict anything I said.
    well let's look at what you said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    What "democratic vote"? Among the employees? If the voters as a whole aren't involved, it's not "democratic."

    And of course, there's the underlying point -- if the government can't even treat its employees well enough so that they need a union, why would we want to cede vast portions of our lives over to it?
    now look at what i said:
    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    not certain what is unfair or undemocratic about a majority of the workers deciding whether they do or do not want to be able to collectively bargain over their working conditions. maybe you can explain it


    the government is a vast bureaucracy
    is it really that far fetched to recognize that some of the people who manage within that bureaucracy might exploit their authority to the detriment of the subordinate employees and/or the public the agency serves? that reality, that some work locations need fairness enforced by a union, does not mean the government agency is not performing a worthwhile service to the public
    democratic vote question
    ANSWERED
    government mistreating its employees question
    ANSWERED

    both questions asked and answered

    which makes your most recent post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    That did not contradict anything I said.
    WRONG
    yet again
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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