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Thread: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    those opposed to unions remind me of the defaulted homeowner who is now facing foreclosure because he cannot afford to repay the mortgage he agreed to pay

    that person commonly laments that it is the fault of the banker for making him a loan the banker should have known he would not be able to pay



    whether it is the private GMC or the public state of california, the managers of those organizations - of their own free will - entered into contracts which obligated them to pay their unionized employees at a particular rate

    now that they can no longer afford that financial obligation they have entered into - usually one they should have had the common sense not to agree to before signing on the line; like the defaulting homeowner, they - and their reich wing cohort - now want to blame someone else for the poor decision they made


    where is the the accepting of personal responsibility - or is that another trait supposed "conservatives" have abandoned
    the union negotiated conditions of employment on behalf of their represented employees. it is their fiduciary responsibility to do that
    in contrast, the managers failed in fulfilling their own fiduciary responsibilities by entering into agreements, which were damaging to their organizations' long term interests

    so now, rather than blaming the parties truly responsible - those who signed bad agreements - we have an element which wants to blame the unions, instead

    absurd. but not surprising
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    whether it is the private GMC or the public state of california, the managers of those organizations - of their own free will - entered into contracts which obligated them to pay their unionized employees at a particular rate
    No. In most cases they were FORCED to enter into contracts, either because the law requires it or because the union monopolized the workforce. Why would the company enter into a union contract voluntarily? The contract is entirely one-sided. What does a union offer the company that a free market does not?
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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    those opposed to unions remind me of the defaulted homeowner who is now facing foreclosure because he cannot afford to repay the mortgage he agreed to pay

    that person commonly laments that it is the fault of the banker for making him a loan the banker should have known he would not be able to pay



    whether it is the private GMC or the public state of california, the managers of those organizations - of their own free will - entered into contracts which obligated them to pay their unionized employees at a particular rate

    now that they can no longer afford that financial obligation they have entered into - usually one they should have had the common sense not to agree to before signing on the line; like the defaulting homeowner, they - and their reich wing cohort - now want to blame someone else for the poor decision they made


    where is the the accepting of personal responsibility - or is that another trait supposed "conservatives" have abandoned
    the union negotiated conditions of employment on behalf of their represented employees. it is their fiduciary responsibility to do that
    in contrast, the managers failed in fulfilling their own fiduciary responsibilities by entering into agreements, which were damaging to their organizations' long term interests

    so now, rather than blaming the parties truly responsible - those who signed bad agreements - we have an element which wants to blame the unions, instead

    absurd. but not surprising
    Do you understand the difference between a public and private union?

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by rogerredy View Post
    Do you understand the difference between a public and private union?
    Are they both legal?
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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No. In most cases they were FORCED to enter into contracts, either because the law requires it or because the union monopolized the workforce. Why would the company enter into a union contract voluntarily? The contract is entirely one-sided. What does a union offer the company that a free market does not?
    sorry to put it so starkly, but you are very wrong

    the union has an obligation to bargain in good faith
    the employer has a like obligation to negotiate in good faith
    there is no obligation that they come to an agreement
    if they end their negotiations and are at impasse, an objective third party - a federal agency - steps in and divides the baby on those issues remaining in dispute, by writing the terms which both must then abide by

    that the employer willingly signed a contract, committing to wages and/or benefits it cannot now afford to pay, speaks to the incompetence of the management which would enter into such an unreasonable contract
    my observation is that often happens when the organization would realize short term benefits by its agreement but long term, it has adverse consequences on the organization. by then, the managers who agreed to the contract and enjoyed the results are usually no longer present to deal with the negatives consequences of what they have signed
    that is NOT the union's fault
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by rogerredy View Post
    Do you understand the difference between a public and private union?
    you missed it. read it again
    i mentioned both the private GMC unionization and the public state of california unionization to illustrate that my point was valid with both types of unions

    and what happened to that grandstanding about placing me on ignore:
    Quote Originally Posted by rogerredy View Post
    For others than the troll, all of the locations, particularly NY, are now spending the vast majority of their budgets on union salaries and benefits.

    These locations are broke, and all have the highest tax levels in the country. Not too hard to figure out, if you are interested in a real conversation, and not trolling. Can't wait for you to get banned here too...


    And I took notice just now of your sig, you are now IGNORED.
    doesn't do much to preserve one's credibility
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  7. #67
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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    sorry to put it so starkly, but you are very wrong

    the union has an obligation to bargain in good faith
    the employer has a like obligation to negotiate in good faith
    there is no obligation that they come to an agreement
    if they end their negotiations and are at impasse, an objective third party - a federal agency - steps in and divides the baby on those issues remaining in dispute, by writing the terms which both must then abide by
    But that's my point, there's always the threat of an "objective third party" arbitrating the dispute for them. The employer is FORCED into a contract with the union; they have no option to just say "Take a hike, I'm not interested."

    Why SHOULD the employer have an obligation to negotiate in good faith if they just aren't interested in what the union is offering? Should I have an obligation to negotiate in good faith with every salesman who knocks on my door, or can I just tell them no?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba
    that the employer willingly signed a contract, committing to wages and/or benefits it cannot now afford to pay, speaks to the incompetence of the management which would enter into such an unreasonable contract
    Are they able to tell the union no and just walk away? No, they aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba
    my observation is that often happens when the organization would realize short term benefits by its agreement but long term, it has adverse consequences on the organization. by then, the managers who agreed to the contract and enjoyed the results are usually no longer present to deal with the negatives consequences of what they have signed
    that is NOT the union's fault
    What benefits does a union (as opposed to a free market) offer a company? If there are none, then the contract is NOT voluntary, because no employer would ever willingly enter into a contract that offered them nothing.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-31-10 at 01:19 PM.
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    Re: Great News!

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    why do you think it should be illegal for federal employees to be unionized?
    It's an unethical relationship unless they give up being able to vote and lobby government.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    In many cases, if I understand it correctly, they CAN say "we're not interested". The union goes on strike, they hire scabs or take the loss. But they're not forced to.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    it government were always wonderful, then the employees would not NEED unions
    but, the public sector employer can and does sometimes exploit its employees, which has caused the employees to petition for an election to become represented by a union
    after which a democratic vote would have been held, in which the majority of the employees determined that a union should represent their interests
    What "democratic vote"? Among the employees? If the voters as a whole aren't involved, it's not "democratic."

    And of course, there's the underlying point -- if the government can't even treat its employees well enough so that they need a union, why would we want to cede vast portions of our lives over to it?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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