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Thread: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

  1. #91
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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Dude, you seem to think that if any group of people takes a "vote," then that's "democratic." I explained exactly why it was not.

    By this reasoning, when Don Corleone and his "colleagues" voted on how to split up the crime syndicates, well, that was "democratic" too. After all, they voted, right?
    and i thought you were not catching on. good work. now you recognize if each family gets a vote and they agree that the majority vote determines the outcome, then please share with us if that would not have been democracy in action - and why you still find it undemocratic




    Right, because you have declared it so. Yet, you said nothing to refute it. I'll repeat what I said: unions exist for one purpose, and that's to get the most compensation for the least amount of work. Explain how that's wrong. (Hint: explain the purpose for which unions exist if what I what I said isn't correct.)
    let's see if you can get two in a row
    unions representing federal employees do NOT negotiate the compensation the federal employees receive
    so, if unions in the federal sector cannot negotiate the compensation then they cannot negotiate THE MOST compensation
    which, of itself, proves your argument ... WRONG

    now let's get to the second portion of your WRONG argument, so i can explain why you are also WRONG about the union's purpose being to negotiate the least amount of work. in my prior post, i explained that the union represented employee - with two sole exceptions explained before - MUST do the work as directed. even if that is in violation of the contract. only after the work has been performed and the direct order followed will the union then step in to address the contract violation - after the fact. which means the amount of work the agency needed done, was done. the employee is not able to do less than is required
    is english your second language, and that is why i had to explain this a second time. if not, please tell me what about my answer you did not understand the first time out
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  2. #92
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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    and i thought you were not catching on. good work. now you recognize if each family gets a vote and they agree that the majority vote determines the outcome, then please share with us if that would not have been democracy in action - and why you still find it undemocratic
    Everything I said there just blew right over your head, didn't it?





    let's see if you can get two in a row
    unions representing federal employees do NOT negotiate the compensation the federal employees receive
    You should probably tell the NFFE that:

    National Federation of Federal Employees


    so, if unions in the federal sector cannot negotiate the compensation then they cannot negotiate THE MOST compensation
    which, of itself, proves your argument ... WRONG
    Even if it were true in the federal government, it certainly isn't true in all government, and I never limited my comments to federal employees.


    now let's get to the second portion of your WRONG argument, so i can explain why you are also WRONG about the union's purpose being to negotiate the least amount of work. in my prior post, i explained that the union represented employee - with two sole exceptions explained before - MUST do the work as directed. even if that is in violation of the contract. only after the work has been performed and the direct order followed will the union then step in to address the contract violation - after the fact.
    Has it occurred to you that the fact it would be a contract violation means it was actually part of the contract? Did that contract just appear from nowhere, or did the union have a part in bringing it about?

    Did I say a union was always successful in its purpose? No. But they will still try to do exactly what I said.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Are they both legal?
    Not always. For example, they were illegal, as the article stated, in NY and other states for a long time - and rightly so.

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    you missed it. read it again
    i mentioned both the private GMC unionization and the public state of california unionization to illustrate that my point was valid with both types of unions

    and what happened to that grandstanding about placing me on ignore:

    doesn't do much to preserve one's credibility
    I can respond to anyone, at any time, as per my discretion. If you are lucky enough to receive a response, consider yourself fortunate.

    Post something rational, and I might respond.

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    you make it apparent you are unacquainted with labor provisions the employer cannot be forced to enter into any particular contract it can be required to participate in good faith at the bargaining table in an attempt to write a contract but the terms of any contract are the outcome of bargaining by the parties
    It is stupid posts like this that illustrate why I avoid this poster.

    Look up BINDING ARBITRATION, you might actually learn something.

    Don't make idiotic statements unless you have the facts behind you.

    that is because the public entities are usually headed by political appointees, who stay only for the duration of the term of the elected official who appointed them. they frequently come into an organization knowing little to nothing about the entity they are to head. they often bring with them a retinue of hangers on who also serve at the whim of the elected official. knowing little about what the organization they are to manage does, they frequently insist on doing some of the things they should not. the appointees often make inappropriate, politically motivated decisions an experienced learder would not make
    then the managers, career employees, who report to these appointed officials, must salute and follow their legal orders, no matter how wrongheaded those orders may be
    and the rank and file union members must follow the managers' legal orders - unless the union contract provides for a different way to handle those matters ... such as how to hire people, and how to promote people, and how to solicit contributions. by having a contract specifying what can and cannot be done by the employees, it limits some of the harm that might otherwise be inflicted on the organization and the organization's ethics, by the political appointees
    Can you make more idiotically useless generalizations than this, that have no basis in fact?
    Last edited by rogerredy; 01-31-10 at 07:41 PM.

  6. #96
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    Re: Great News!

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    i am assuming your attempt to offer a point is that the unionized government employee, being able to negotiate for self interest, must deny themself the right to vote or to lobby government
    that makes no sense ... other than the present provision in the federal sector which provides that federal employees cannot lobby in their official capacity. let me note that i disagree with a current provision which exempts from that lobbying prohibition those federal employees who are in their office due to appointment by an elected official; those political appointees are free to both lobby and to campaign for individuals running for office - and do this at public expense
    They get double representation at the expense of their non unionized fellow citizens.

    They can possibly affect policy which can influence their future employment.
    It's completely unethical.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    That did not contradict anything I said.
    Your first mistake was to expect a rational argument from that poster - you'll never get one.

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    unions exist to ensure fair treatment of employees, to enforce health and safety standards, to work for the benefit of said employees in contract negotiations....unions work on the premise that the strength of a group is greater than the strength of just one individual. if you think that management in most businesses give a rats ass about one individual , you couldnt be more wrong. if one person is making waves, it is easy to get rid of them...if that person belongs to a union, it has to be a LEGIT reason. do you enjoy time and a half for your overtime hours? THANK THE UNIONS...do you enjoy your weekends? THANK THE UNIONS...do you like the idea that your employer has to adhere to health and safety regulations? THANK THE UNIONS. all of this is enjoyed today because unions fought for it, fought for better working conditions, fought for a fair days wage for a fair days work.....even non-union employees enjoy these benefits because UNIONS fought for them.
    Nice post, except it is totally off-topic. This thread is about PUBLIC UNIONS, which it seems some posters cannot understand or distinguish.

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    and i thought you were not catching on. good work. now you recognize if each family gets a vote and they agree that the majority vote determines the outcome, then please share with us if that would not have been democracy in action - and why you still find it undemocratic
    For the adults, what some posters cannot seem to grasp is that there were fundamental reasons WHY public employees were unable to unionize until recently, and why even private unions felt it would be a mistake to allow them to do so.

    These reasons included unfair lobbying of government for ever higher amounts of benefits - which are the major problem now, plus the fact that were emergency workers like the police to go on strike would lead to an obvious disaster.

    Lastly, the fact that public unions would by definition, have an unfair advantage over government because not only were they voters, but they could then use the taxpayer money to to affect government decisions towards policy - such as their benefits, contracts, etc., in essence a double dipping other, non-aligned citizens cannot do.

    Usually, this is rather clear to posters who 1) do not have an agenda 2) are not trying to "stir the pot" as some posters do, who prefer to just argue and antagonize because they are immature and want to "get a rise" out of other posters trying to have an adult discussion.

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    Re: Most Union Members Now Work for Government [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    You should probably tell the NFFE that:

    National Federation of Federal Employees
    You're not going to get a rational discussion with that poster, it is just not going to happen.

    As soon as you post facts undermining them, its onto a different topic, obfuscation, personal attacks, etc. Just scroll up for evidence.

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