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Thread: The new Iranian uprising - This time, the Mullahs will fall

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    Re: The new Iranian uprising - This time, the Mullahs will fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    The Iranian government has announced that there will be no more Mr nice guy. Expect some more cracked heads and deaths. The "revolution" is not going to happen soon.
    The tighter the Iranian nazi government tightens its grip the more people that will slip through its grasp and go rebellious on their asses.

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    Re: The new Iranian uprising - This time, the Mullahs will fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar
    That's the nature of protests; some people behave differently than most. For the most part though, it's been a nonviolent movement. Moreover, I think sending them guns wouldn't be wise. If the struggle DOES become an outright violent confrontation between the protesters and the military, the military would easily win.
    Ah, so it is better to just bow down than to defend yourself? Is that what you are saying?

    We published this statement on June 17th in response to the murder of Iranian civilians asserting their political beliefs by the basij.

    It is clear now that the government won’t let Iranians demonstrate in peace. We call for freedom, democracy, equality and justice, and what do they do? They shoot at us. They kill our young men and women who have done nothing wrong except stand up for what they believe in. These courageous and heroic people who have given their lives for freedom will never be forgotten. Their families will not forget them, but neither will we! We have vowed to continue our struggle until we have attained a truly democratic and free political system, but whenever we go out to protest for this they beat us and shoot us. There is only one option left for us when we go out to fight for our human rights; We must be armed to defend ourselves!

    If the dictatorship will not accept our calls for its death, and instead decides to kill us for our struggle, then we will do what is necessary to defend ourselves. We must make sure to be armed and prepared for any attacks they have prepared for us. Thousands of us have been captured by the disgusting secret police forces, the Basij and other state sponsored terrorists. They are now languishing in prisons like Evin all over the country. There they are being tortured and slowly killed. Imagine the pain they must be in! Imagine what they will do to us when they capture us! We must fight against this with all our might.

    We have not chosen this path. The enemies of democracy have chosen it for us. They have decided that blood needs to be spilled, and our blood has been spilled for the past few days. This has gone on long enough. If they want blood to spill, then we shall make sure to spill theirs too!

    There are undoubtedly people in the army and police who are sympathetic to our cause and who even want to take our side. Them we will respect and work with. We are calling on them to join us in this struggle. We will not shoot first and ask questions later like the Basij and other state-terrorists are doing now. But we will shoot at anyone who shoots at us first.

    We must get weapons from wherever we can. If you have some old weapons lying at home, take them with you to a secure place where they can all be gathered. There you can stockpile as many of them as you can find. They can be used to attack armories and other storage places for weapons. We will use those to do the same until we have enough weapons to create our own police, our own militia, and eventually our own army!

    But we will not be like the state terrorists. We will use our weapons to make sure that democracy is established, and that no one harms us for wanting to create such a society. When we chant death to the dictator, we mean it. And when we are armed, you will no longer dare stop us or our movement from saying that!

    For everyone who has been martyred in the struggle since Friday, let’s arm ourselves!

    Note: This message will be written in Farsi soon and sent to as many people in Iran as possible. The people must defend themselves from attacks. You have seen the videos and pictures of our young being killed without reason. This must be stopped, and only we can stop it when we are armed!

    Rise of the Iranian People
    Seems like some liberal pacifist rubbish to me. I'm sure if the police in your neighborhood were attempting to beat you, shoot you and throw you off buildings you'd want a gun to defend yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by stalin was a nice being
    This isn't all of Iran. Its a small segment and if the US or the western world tries to help the protestors you can bet that the "revolution" will be over.
    No revolution is made by the entire populace of a country.

    After having read your post more carefully, Dana. I think you should know that many of the people leading the protests are Mullahs themselves. Ayatollah Montazeri is a prominant supporter of the protestors and many of the protestors are pro-Montazeri. Montazeri is definately not anti-mullah.
    They are not "leading" the protests; they are riding on the crest of the tidal wave that the Iran people have generated. In case you haven't noticed many of the leaders were unable to maintain their position because of the fact that they could not reconcile their conservative political beliefs with the revolutionary demands of the Iranian people.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeJayH

    Brutality will win over Ideology
    I can't agree with this. The tensions that have boiled over into this movement have existed since the Islamic revolution crushed the workers' (socialist) movement and their coming out into the open as they have has produced a qualitative change in the political situation in the country. Whatever happens, there is simply no going back now.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 01-07-10 at 02:22 AM.
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    Re: The new Iranian uprising - This time, the Mullahs will fall

    BTW I just wanted to add that I am glad that this is once again being discussed. It is disheartening to see events as important as these discussed only when the main stream media is reporting on them (which never lasts that long because they are always looking for the new hype), and between then and now, while tensions have not been as explosive they have been maintained. The movement never went anywhere and it won't until these issues are resolved, through whatever means.

    Revolution does not happen overnight. It can take years, even decades to finally spill over into decisive conflict. While I initially was overly optimistic about the advances the protesters would make in the initial explosive stage, I still stand by my earlier statement that this will not die out and that this lapse in profound action on the part of the protesters is simply due to a regrouping of forces and a rebalancing of the situation and the power relations in Iranian society.

    This will continue until these tensions are resolved.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: The new Iranian uprising - This time, the Mullahs will fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Ah, so it is better to just bow down than to defend yourself? Is that what you are saying?
    Not at all. I'm saying it's better for them to continue protests that are (mostly) non-violent...at least until a good bit of the military starts to defect. There is simply no way that a bunch of college students are going to win a firepower contest against the Revolutionary Guard, if it comes to that.

    Put yourself in the position of a Revolutionary Guardsman: You're doing your job defending your country and collecting your paycheck. You don't want to hurt your fellow countrymen, and you may even sympathize with their ideals. If other Guardsmen start to stand down and/or join the opposition, there is a good chance that you'll stand down too. But if protesters start shooting at you, of course you're going to shoot back as you don't want to die.

    The only way the revolution can be successful is if the military forces abandon the regime. Overpowering the military is a hopeless fantasy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique
    Seems like some liberal pacifist rubbish to me. I'm sure if the police in your neighborhood were attempting to beat you, shoot you and throw you off buildings you'd want a gun to defend yourself.
    Most successful democratic revolutions in recent years have been relatively nonviolent. In fact, I can only think of one recent revolution with much protester-initiated violence at all: Kyrgyzstan. And even there, it was mostly limited to overwhelming police in poorly-defended areas, taking over government buildings, and tossing some Molotov cocktails...not a full-scale armed rebellion.
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    Re: The new Iranian uprising - This time, the Mullahs will fall

    1. The KKK never was an official organ of the State, nor a government itself, so using it as an example of a Theocracy fails.

    2. The previous (Muslim) Theocracy in Spain lasted for about 800 years, and was quite stable for most of that time. It is also asserted by apologists for Islam that religious minorities fared quite well under that regime.

    3. Technically, Great Britain might be called a Theocracy, since the Queen is also the head of the Church of England. This is obviously a semantic exercise.

    4. Ancient Egypt appears to have had one of the highest living standards in the ancient world, and functioned as a stable Technocracy with a few crises for about 3000 years.

    5. During the Pax Romana, a period marked by peace general tolerance and lawfulness, The Empire had a definite Official Religion, and indeed proclaimed the Emperors to be gods.

    6. The Confederacy, much less the Old South was never a Theocracy.

    7. The Soviet Union, and Communist China which enslaved and killed hundreds of millions were officially Atheistic, and suppressed religion.

    8. Tyrannies are made by tyrannical personalities who will attach themselves to whatever creed, religion, or philosophy allows them to exert their desire for power. This includes any democratic form of government.
    Last edited by Oftencold; 01-07-10 at 05:01 AM.
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    Re: The new Iranian uprising - This time, the Mullahs will fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar
    Not at all. I'm saying it's better for them to continue protests that are (mostly) non-violent...at least until a good bit of the military starts to defect. There is simply no way that a bunch of college students are going to win a firepower contest against the Revolutionary Guard, if it comes to that.

    Put yourself in the position of a Revolutionary Guardsman: You're doing your job defending your country and collecting your paycheck. You don't want to hurt your fellow countrymen, and you may even sympathize with their ideals. If other Guardsmen start to stand down and/or join the opposition, there is a good chance that you'll stand down too. But if protesters start shooting at you, of course you're going to shoot back as you don't want to die.

    The only way the revolution can be successful is if the military forces abandon the regime. Overpowering the military is a hopeless fantasy.
    Yes, which is why we have said that the people must be armed to defend themselves.

    I fully agree that it is important to get members of the state to come over to the side of the people if it is possible. There have been instances of this happening in Iran when members of the police and army have refused to attack the protesters or have even gone over to their side, but not on a significant scale as of yet.

    Most successful democratic revolutions in recent years have been relatively nonviolent. In fact, I can only think of one recent revolution with much protester-initiated violence at all: Kyrgyzstan. And even there, it was mostly limited to overwhelming police in poorly-defended areas, taking over government buildings, and tossing some Molotov cocktails...not a full-scale armed rebellion.
    Such revolutions were specific to the conditions in which they developed and many were more violent than most think (India, for example). Not sure what that has to do with what you quoted, though.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: The new Iranian uprising - This time, the Mullahs will fall

    In case some have missed it, here's an interesting piece on some of the fundamentals that we cant ignore from the Iranian election

    http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/files...ection0609.pdf

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    Re: The new Iranian uprising - This time, the Mullahs will fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    BTW I just wanted to add that I am glad that this is once again being discussed. It is disheartening to see events as important as these discussed only when the main stream media is reporting on them (which never lasts that long because they are always looking for the new hype), and between then and now, while tensions have not been as explosive they have been maintained. The movement never went anywhere and it won't until these issues are resolved, through whatever means.

    Revolution does not happen overnight. It can take years, even decades to finally spill over into decisive conflict. While I initially was overly optimistic about the advances the protesters would make in the initial explosive stage, I still stand by my earlier statement that this will not die out and that this lapse in profound action on the part of the protesters is simply due to a regrouping of forces and a rebalancing of the situation and the power relations in Iranian society.

    This will continue until these tensions are resolved.
    It is scary to think about what a nuclear Iranian government is likely to do if they really feel threatened from internal forces. North Korea on steroids!

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    Re: The new Iranian uprising - This time, the Mullahs will fall

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut
    It is scary to think about what a nuclear Iranian government is likely to do if they really feel threatened from internal forces. North Korea on steroids!
    Um, they won't do anything.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: The new Iranian uprising - This time, the Mullahs will fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Um, they won't do anything.
    Because they will not ever have nukes.

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