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LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

apdst said:
Pay taxes with equity? What ****ing la-la land do you live in?!? I mean, no ****!
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Home Equity Loans | Current Home Equity Loan Rates

Seriously.

That's even more stupid than the crap that misterman and Goldenboy have posted on this thread. Geeeeez!!!!!!
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You mean the two people you have yet to refute? Got it.

I want you to show me that in the tax code. Don't come back till you can.
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Show what in the tax code?

You're not that special that Congress will write "Adpst is wrong" into the tax code.
 
apdst said:
Show us where equity can be used to pay taxes, don't come back till you have it, unless you want your little ass spanked.
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Still haven't figured out what a home equity loan is have you?

Imagine. I get a loan based on the equity of my house. I then use the loan proceeds to buy a Carrera, a boat, a pony and pay my taxes. I have effectively leveraged and converted the equity in my house into cash which, among other things, was used to pay taxes. Thus, I have used equity to pay taxes. Adpst, wrong as usual since June 2009!
 
obvious Child said:
Still haven't figured out what a home equity loan is have you?

Imagine. I get a loan based on the equity of my house. I then use the loan proceeds to buy a Carrera, a boat, a pony and pay my taxes. I have effectively leveraged and converted the equity in my house into cash which, among other things, was used to pay taxes. Thus, I have used equity to pay taxes. Adpst, wrong as usual since June 2009!
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I know exactly what a home equity loan is and it has nothing to do ith paying taxes. So, take this oppurtunity to show us where equity can be used to pay taxes. We'll all be awaiting with eager patience, because we ALL want to know how to do ths ****...lol
 
apdst said:
Have you ever owned property?

Liquidity has everything to do with it. Typically, liquidity is called, "profit", and is everything!
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Hmmm. I've run my own business too, and of course like everyone else I use basic financial and accounting principles to run my household. But hey, just to be sure, I looked up liquidity and found this:

liquidity
A large position in cash or in assets that are easily convertible to cash. High liquidity produces flexibility for a firm or an investor in a low-risk position, but it also tends to decrease profitability.

But if you want to call that "profit," nobody can stop you.

But this thread is off track. You still have yet to explain why government can't create wealth, at least by spending money.
 
apdst said:
I know exactly what a home equity loan is and it has nothing to do ith paying taxes. So, take this oppurtunity to show us where equity can be used to pay taxes. We'll all be awaiting with eager patience, because we ALL want to know how to do ths ****...lol
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I've explained this to you three times already. If you don't get the simple process of converting equity into loan proceeds, you're never going to understand.

And no, you don't know what a home equity loan is if you haven't figured out my argument.

For those who can read, if you are in a high tax bracket, using HELs to pay off taxes may be beneficial as they are tax deductible. Not only do you get to pay off taxes with equity, you get to reduce your total income taxes in the process. If your HEL rate is low, it may just work for you.
 
obvious Child said:
I've explained this to you three times already. If you don't get the simple process of converting equity into loan proceeds, you're never going to understand.

And no, you don't know what a home equity loan is if you haven't figured out my argument.

For those who can read, if you are in a high tax bracket, using HELs to pay off taxes may be beneficial as they are tax deductible. Not only do you get to pay off taxes with equity, you get to reduce your total income taxes in the process. If your HEL rate is low, it may just work for you.
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You haven't explained a goddamn thing. I wanna know how to pay taxes with equity. I mean, I really wanna know!...lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Grim17 said:
This colossal waste of taxpayer money is a classic example of the inefficiency of the federal government, and the number 1 reason why we need to keep the government out of the health care industry.

Do you people realize, that if the Obama administration would have taken that $157 billion, split it up, and simply given it to the 3 million people who have lost their jobs since Obama took office, that would have given each of them $52,600 a piece... That's an entire years wages.

.
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Its better than the $1,000,000 bush spent on each one of our Troops that got killed!
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Let me 'learn' ya about the bail outs:
1- Protecting Americans money is a priority because theres no way that all the 401Ks, savings etc. could survive without it.
2- Protecting the Auto makers is a must because the branch off jobs will also go down because 5-6 out of every 10 jobs in the U.S.A. are Auto related.
There is a local factory here that makes the thread to sew the seatcovers together and it goes way beyond that.
 
Sergeant Stinger1 said:
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Its better than the $1,000,000 bush spent on each one of our Troops that got killed!
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Let me 'learn' ya about the bail outs:
1- Protecting Americans money is a priority because theres no way that all the 401Ks, savings etc. could survive without it.
2- Protecting the Auto makers is a must because the branch off jobs will also go down because 5-6 out of every 10 jobs in the U.S.A. are Auto related.
There is a local factory here that makes the thread to sew the seatcovers together and it goes way beyond that.
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Does that mean that there's going to be an energy industry bailout? Hundreds of thousands of branch off jobs there.
 
obvious Child said:
Show me you understand what a Home Equity Loan is.

You are still wrong on everything on that list.
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You don't even know how irrelevant a home equity loan is to this discussion. Do you?
 
apdst said:
That's right, to an extent. However the increase in value you just talked about was canceled out by the increase in property taxes that has to be paid in cash. You do understand the difference in equity and liquidity? Now, that is kindergarten stuff. Who's embarressing herself??
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Look! I traced this ridiculous war over liquidity and equity and profit to this message.

Yes, apdst, an increase in property value also increases property taxes, which need to be paid in cash.

No, the value is not "canceled out" by the taxes, unless the tax rate is 100% on that marginal increase in value or something.

Let's move on.
 
Sergeant Stinger1 said:
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Its better than the $1,000,000 bush spent on each one of our Troops that got killed!
-
Let me 'learn' ya about the bail outs:
1- Protecting Americans money is a priority because theres no way that all the 401Ks, savings etc. could survive without it.
2- Protecting the Auto makers is a must because the branch off jobs will also go down because 5-6 out of every 10 jobs in the U.S.A. are Auto related.
There is a local factory here that makes the thread to sew the seatcovers together and it goes way beyond that.
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Auto-Related yes but not necessarily derived from an Auto Company, not to mention the bastards are sending their jobs overseas, amirite? Evil corporations! OHNOES!!! :shock::shock::shock:
 
obvious Child said:
Show me you understand what a Home Equity Loan is.

You are still wrong on everything on that list.
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That really doesn't work unless you're planning to sell the house at some point. Otherwise it is just a loan against future income.
 
apdst said:
Because the war create a market for war materials and certainty in that market. The New Deal, like the Stealfromus package, didn't create either of those.
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Who was buying most of the the war materials we made? The government, correct?
 
On the banking thing - as this story notes, banks say they WANT to make loans, it's the lack of qualified borrowers that is the main problem. The regulatory uncertainty is another issue. The stimulus is not.

Obama calls on banks to ramp up lending
Executives brought to White House as loans dry up in recession

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Bank executives say they itch to make profitable loans, as many as possible, but are struggling to find qualified borrowers. They also say that the administration is asking for increased lending even as it pursues financial reforms that will limit the ability of banks to make loans.

Some note that a recession caused by an orgy of lending must be solved in part through greater restraint.

washingtonpost.com
 
akyron said:
On the contrary. Thats exactly what this excessive government spending is about.
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But not what this thread is about.

You said "ethics against taking other peoples money without their permission." Yet taxes are never taken with permission, at any level. You seem to be arguing against ALL government spending, not just "excessive" spending. You want to argue about the power of government to tax, that's another thread.
 
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phattonez said:
Let's not forget that the jobs that are being "created" are temporary, like construction jobs. If it was careers, it wouldn't be so bad, but these are jobs that sometimes don't even last 2 years. Also, some of these jobs aren't even producing any wealth, like construction that isn't even necessary.
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And don't forget that jobs "created or saved" is an absolutely bogus measurement subject to manipulation. If you're asking for government money, are you going to say that your project will "create or save" 0 jobs or 100? How could they ever know?

And what about the current and future jobs that are being destroyed by taxes?

The government does not create jobs!
 
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gopman said:
And don't forget that jobs "created or saved" is an absolutely bogus measurement subject to manipulation. If you're asking for government money, are you going to say that your project will "create or save" 0 jobs or 100? How could they ever know?
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Gosh, maybe they have a plan for how many people they are going to need to hire to do the job, like any business would. It's not rocket science.

And what about the current and future jobs that are being destroyed by taxes?
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Yeah, taxes suck, and too much taxation can destroy jobs. But we are in a crisis. With a long, deep recession, tax revenue would drop way down for a long time without any tax cuts or spending increases. That would require higher taxes in the future just to make up. If things work out, this stimulus will pay for itself, and then some, by getting the economy back in shape much quicker and getting people back to paying taxes instead of collecting unemployment or food stamps.

The government does not create jobs!
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Of course it does.
 
misterman said:
Gosh, maybe they have a plan for how many people they are going to need to hire to do the job, like any business would. It's not rocket science.
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A number of saved jobs would require rocket science to figure out. Or you just do some magic called economics where you don't have to prove a thing.

Yeah, taxes suck, and too much taxation can destroy jobs. But we are in a crisis. With a long, deep recession, tax revenue would drop way down for a long time without any tax cuts or spending increases. That would require higher taxes in the future just to make up. If things work out, this stimulus will pay for itself, and then some, by getting the economy back in shape much quicker and getting people back to paying taxes instead of collecting unemployment or food stamps.
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How does government determine where it is best to spend money?

Of course it does.
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If you conveniently ignore where the government got that money from.
 
obvious Child said:
True. But it does allow you to convert equity into cash to pay taxes.
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Why would I want a loan to pay my taxes? That effectively increases my taxes by whatever the interest rate is.
 
phattonez said:
A number of saved jobs would require rocket science to figure out. Or you just do some magic called economics where you don't have to prove a thing.
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Not only that, but there's a massive incentive to "exaggerate". Like I said, would you ask for government money and tell them you're only going to "save" 1 or 2 jobs?
 
phattonez said:
A number of saved jobs would require rocket science to figure out. Or you just do some magic called economics where you don't have to prove a thing.
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No it doesn't. It just means instead of hiring new people, you sign a contract with a firm before they lay off people. "Created or saved" simply means that some jobs will be new ones and some will be existing ones that would dissolve if it weren't for the stimulus.

How does government determine where it is best to spend money?
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Ideally, the government looks at economic data showing which projects employ the most people, including indirect jobs. But there's no denying that politics is involved too.

If you conveniently ignore where the government got that money from.
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Why ignore it? Why does it matter that the job was created with tax money or not? It's still a job that was created, at least until the private sector can get back to employing the occupant again.

If the stimulus were permanent, you might have a point. But it's not. It is designed to get the private sector running at full speed again, not permanently replace it with the government. It's a temporary, emergency measure.
 
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