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Thread: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

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    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    That really doesn't work unless you're planning to sell the house at some point. Otherwise it is just a loan against future income.
    True. But it does allow you to convert equity into cash to pay taxes.
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    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    On the banking thing - as this story notes, banks say they WANT to make loans, it's the lack of qualified borrowers that is the main problem. The regulatory uncertainty is another issue. The stimulus is not.

    Obama calls on banks to ramp up lending
    Executives brought to White House as loans dry up in recession

    ...

    Bank executives say they itch to make profitable loans, as many as possible, but are struggling to find qualified borrowers. They also say that the administration is asking for increased lending even as it pursues financial reforms that will limit the ability of banks to make loans.

    Some note that a recession caused by an orgy of lending must be solved in part through greater restraint.


    washingtonpost.com

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    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    That's another thread, dude.
    On the contrary. Thats exactly what this excessive government spending is about.
    Thank you

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    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by akyron View Post
    On the contrary. Thats exactly what this excessive government spending is about.
    But not what this thread is about.

    You said "ethics against taking other peoples money without their permission." Yet taxes are never taken with permission, at any level. You seem to be arguing against ALL government spending, not just "excessive" spending. You want to argue about the power of government to tax, that's another thread.
    Last edited by misterman; 12-16-09 at 09:56 AM.

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    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Let's not forget that the jobs that are being "created" are temporary, like construction jobs. If it was careers, it wouldn't be so bad, but these are jobs that sometimes don't even last 2 years. Also, some of these jobs aren't even producing any wealth, like construction that isn't even necessary.
    And don't forget that jobs "created or saved" is an absolutely bogus measurement subject to manipulation. If you're asking for government money, are you going to say that your project will "create or save" 0 jobs or 100? How could they ever know?

    And what about the current and future jobs that are being destroyed by taxes?

    The government does not create jobs!
    Last edited by gopman; 12-16-09 at 11:00 AM.
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    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by gopman View Post
    And don't forget that jobs "created or saved" is an absolutely bogus measurement subject to manipulation. If you're asking for government money, are you going to say that your project will "create or save" 0 jobs or 100? How could they ever know?
    Gosh, maybe they have a plan for how many people they are going to need to hire to do the job, like any business would. It's not rocket science.

    And what about the current and future jobs that are being destroyed by taxes?
    Yeah, taxes suck, and too much taxation can destroy jobs. But we are in a crisis. With a long, deep recession, tax revenue would drop way down for a long time without any tax cuts or spending increases. That would require higher taxes in the future just to make up. If things work out, this stimulus will pay for itself, and then some, by getting the economy back in shape much quicker and getting people back to paying taxes instead of collecting unemployment or food stamps.

    The government does not create jobs!
    Of course it does.

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    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Gosh, maybe they have a plan for how many people they are going to need to hire to do the job, like any business would. It's not rocket science.
    A number of saved jobs would require rocket science to figure out. Or you just do some magic called economics where you don't have to prove a thing.

    Yeah, taxes suck, and too much taxation can destroy jobs. But we are in a crisis. With a long, deep recession, tax revenue would drop way down for a long time without any tax cuts or spending increases. That would require higher taxes in the future just to make up. If things work out, this stimulus will pay for itself, and then some, by getting the economy back in shape much quicker and getting people back to paying taxes instead of collecting unemployment or food stamps.
    How does government determine where it is best to spend money?

    Of course it does.
    If you conveniently ignore where the government got that money from.

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    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    True. But it does allow you to convert equity into cash to pay taxes.
    Why would I want a loan to pay my taxes? That effectively increases my taxes by whatever the interest rate is.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
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    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    A number of saved jobs would require rocket science to figure out. Or you just do some magic called economics where you don't have to prove a thing.
    Not only that, but there's a massive incentive to "exaggerate". Like I said, would you ask for government money and tell them you're only going to "save" 1 or 2 jobs?
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    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    A number of saved jobs would require rocket science to figure out. Or you just do some magic called economics where you don't have to prove a thing.
    No it doesn't. It just means instead of hiring new people, you sign a contract with a firm before they lay off people. "Created or saved" simply means that some jobs will be new ones and some will be existing ones that would dissolve if it weren't for the stimulus.

    How does government determine where it is best to spend money?
    Ideally, the government looks at economic data showing which projects employ the most people, including indirect jobs. But there's no denying that politics is involved too.

    If you conveniently ignore where the government got that money from.
    Why ignore it? Why does it matter that the job was created with tax money or not? It's still a job that was created, at least until the private sector can get back to employing the occupant again.

    If the stimulus were permanent, you might have a point. But it's not. It is designed to get the private sector running at full speed again, not permanently replace it with the government. It's a temporary, emergency measure.

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