Page 14 of 63 FirstFirst ... 4121314151624 ... LastLast
Results 131 to 140 of 628

Thread: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

  1. #131
    Sage
    j-mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    South Carolina
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 03:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    30,272

    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    I dont' think so, but let's see.



    Your error is saying you have to raise taxes. No you don't. When the economy improves, tax revenue goes up at the same tax rates. More jobs and better paying jobs = more income tax revenue without raising taxes.

    That's what Reagan tried (but failed) to do, and Clinton succeeded in doing, bringing us the first government surplus in decades. (How's that for partisan! )

    Pretty partisan, and some falsehoods to boot. First, your assertion that the boom economy was due to some mythical surplus that Clinton mastered is wholly a lie by Clinton. Clinton's supposed surplus was a paper tiger that never materialized. It was amortized over a decade and used a flawed methodology to arrive at the conclusion that any surplus was achieved.

    Time and time again, anyone reading the mainstream news or reading articles on the Internet will read the claim that President Clinton not only balanced the budget, but had a surplus. This is then used as an argument to further highlight the fiscal irresponsibility of the federal government under the Bush administration.

    The claim is generally made that Clinton had a surplus of $69 billion in FY1998, $123 billion in FY1999 and $230 billion in FY2000 . In that same link, Clinton claimed that the national debt had been reduced by $360 billion in the last three years, presumably FY1998, FY1999, and FY2000--though, interestingly, $360 billion is not the sum of the alleged surpluses of the three years in question ($69B + $123B + $230B = $422B, not $360B).

    While not defending the increase of the federal debt under President Bush, it's curious to see Clinton's record promoted as having generated a surplus. It never happened. There was never a surplus and the facts support that position. In fact, far from a $360 billion reduction in the national debt in FY1998-FY2000, there was an increase of $281 billion.

    Verifying this is as simple as accessing the U.S. Treasury (see note about this link below) website where the national debt is updated daily and a history of the debt since January 1993 can be obtained. Considering the government's fiscal year ends on the last day of September each year, and considering Clinton's budget proposal in 1993 took effect in October 1993 and concluded September 1994 (FY1994), here's the national debt at the end of each year of Clinton Budgets.

    The Myth of the Clinton Surplus
    Your second fallacy is that you, using the same flawed thinking as Clinton, you assume that everything remains static. It doesn't. So while you wait for an economy to improve that our current President seems intent on destroying totally, is a dream that may never happen. And in the mean time you have Intrest alone on a debt that is equal to approximately 1/8 of our GDP annually.

    to say that your thinking on this measure would seem flawed is to be kind.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

  2. #132
    Traditionalist
    phattonez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    12-05-17 @ 03:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,072

    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Fractional reserve banking does not induce recessions. They have been cyclical in nature for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Only a small fringe group of "so called" economists believe this idea; and the most relevant economic theory from that group (to date) revels in socialism.
    What a strawman! And an appeal to popularity! A boat load of logical fallacies.

    Most corrections were never this severe (in terms of wealth evaporation). Laissez faire never existed Tony. Government has been intervening in the economy since the days of Washington.
    It has been intervening, but before, they used to cut taxes and spending. Now they like to increase spending. Why did we switch from a plan that worked so well for so many years?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #133
    Traditionalist
    phattonez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    12-05-17 @ 03:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,072

    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Full reserve leads to stagnated growth.

    The critisism is longer than the article
    So tell me. With fractional-reserve, you get a boom and bust and you have to average the two to get your growth. Without it, you get gradual growth and no busts. Which is better?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  4. #134
    Sage
    misterman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Last Seen
    02-09-12 @ 08:41 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    12,913

    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Pretty partisan, and some falsehoods to boot. First, your assertion that the boom economy was due to some mythical surplus that Clinton mastered is wholly a lie by Clinton. Clinton's supposed surplus was a paper tiger that never materialized. It was amortized over a decade and used a flawed methodology to arrive at the conclusion that any surplus was achieved.
    I knew I shouldn't have distracted you with that.

    Clinton's surplus was 100% real. But let's take that to another thread if you want to discuss it.

    Your second fallacy is that you, using the same flawed thinking as Clinton, you assume that everything remains static. It doesn't.
    Huh?

    Government spending jump-starts the economy, producing new tax revenue to pay off the debt. Simple concept. No different than Reagan's argument for tax cuts - debt in the short-term will pay for itself through growth later.

  5. #135
    Traditionalist
    phattonez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    12-05-17 @ 03:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,072

    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    I honestly couldn't find any place in this article that explained how you loan out cash when you have to keep 100% of cash in reserve. How is that possible? Perhaps you could point it out or explain it yourself or find another link.

    I did find this quote though:
    Is there any way to have more than 100% of your reserves?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  6. #136
    Sage
    j-mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    South Carolina
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 03:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    30,272

    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Why did we switch from a plan that worked so well for so many years?

    Cloward and Piven became the strategy of the liberal Marxist in this country.


    I submit to you they understand the consequences. For many it is simply a practical matter of eliciting votes from a targeted constituency at taxpayer expense; we lose a little, they gain a lot, and the politician keeps his job. But for others, the goal is more malevolent - the failure is deliberate. Don't laugh. This method not only has its proponents, it has a name: the Cloward-Piven Strategy. It describes their agenda, tactics, and long-term strategy.

    The Strategy was first elucidated in the May 2, 1966 issue of The Nation magazine by a pair of radical socialist Columbia University professors, Richard Andrew Cloward and Frances Fox Piven.

    American Thinker: Barack Obama and the Strategy of Manufactured Crisis

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

  7. #137
    Sage
    misterman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Last Seen
    02-09-12 @ 08:41 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    12,913

    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    What a strawman! And an appeal to popularity! A boat load of logical fallacies.
    You know what? Enough with the "appeal to authority" thing. Bringing up economists simply means that people have spent alot more time studying and documenting and calculating this stuff than any of us, so you can't just dismiss it without checking that out. We are a bunch of amateurs arguing about stuff we don't fully understand, and we are smart to keep that in mind.

  8. #138
    Sage
    misterman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Last Seen
    02-09-12 @ 08:41 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    12,913

    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Is there any way to have more than 100% of your reserves?
    Huh? I can't think of one. You're smart, tell me. How does a bank that must keep all its cash in reserve make loans?

  9. #139
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Last Seen
    09-22-10 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    11,430

    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Your government intervention red herring is noted! No begging here: how much suffering are you willing to allow for the economy to self correct?
    All of it.

    Nothing more is needed.

  10. #140
    Sage
    j-mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    South Carolina
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 03:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    30,272

    Re: LA Times: Obama stimulus spending: $246,436 per new job

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    I knew I shouldn't have distracted you with that.

    Clinton's surplus was 100% real. But let's take that to another thread if you want to discuss it.

    Sure, point me to it, but just be forewarned that denial is not a river. IOW, you don't get off as easy as to just simply say that the mythical surplus was "100% real" and then jump off.


    Government spending jump-starts the economy, producing new tax revenue to pay off the debt. Simple concept. No different than Reagan's argument for tax cuts - debt in the short-term will pay for itself through growth later.

    Really? If that is indeed the case, then considering all of Obama's claims of Creating jobs, Saving jobs and Stimulus working better than they had hoped, then tell me sir, Why are we in double digit unemployment? Why are the revenues to the government down? And most importantly why would a seemingly smart guy like yourself, someone that obviously should know more about economics than a mere truck driver like myself, be so duped as to choke down every word that the current liar n chief says?


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

Page 14 of 63 FirstFirst ... 4121314151624 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •