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Thread: Movement under way in California to ban divorce

  1. #51
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    Re: Movement under way in California to ban divorce

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No no no...
    YOU have to show that the funds were significantly shifted AWAY from the 'decline of marriage' message and into the 'anti gay-marriage' agenda.


    No no no...
    YOU have to show that the ads were significantly shifted AWAY from the 'decline of marriage' message and toward the 'anti gay-marriage' agenda.


    That you think you have addressed MY position is nothing but denial.
    That you think I have not supported MY position is nothing but denial.
    In fact, I'll bet you cannot tell me what my posiion IS, much less how you have addressed it.
    Why do I have to show anything? I have provided the evidence. I have also provided the charge that little to no money has been spent to alleviate the leading factors in the decline of traditional marriage by the anti gm crowd. Prove me wrong. Why can't you do it?

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    Re: Movement under way in California to ban divorce

    Goobie, let's get some things clear since you seem confused.

    1. Are not the leading factors in the decline of traditional marriage no fault divorce and women leaving home to work?
    2. Does the evidence, such as the divorce rate in MA, seem to indicate that same sex marriage have relatively no impact on traditional marriage?
    3. If your position was to preserve traditional marriage, would it not be reasonable to put most, if not all your money towards combating the leading factors that contribute to its decline?
    4. If the anti gm money is not being spent to combat the leading factors in the decline in traditional marriage, but on a factor that has relatively no impact on traditional marriage, then is it not reasonable to assume that it is not being used for the benefit of traditional marriage?

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    Re: Movement under way in California to ban divorce

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Why do I have to show anything?
    Because it is your claim, and as such, you are charged with backing it up.

    You claim "change of focus" is harming marriage.
    You have to back that claim up. To do that, you have to show the original focus, the change of focus, and the effect on the observer.

    YOU chose to define that focus in termns of money spent and advertisement, and so YOU have to show the shift. You THEN have to show the effect on othe observer is one that supports the idea that this change has had a negative effect on marriage.

    If you cannot do these things, thern admit as much and move on.

    And you STILL havent addressed my position - indeed, you have not shown that you inderstand what my position is.

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    Re: Movement under way in California to ban divorce

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Goobie, let's get some things clear since you seem confused.
    Theres no confusion here - you simply havent backed up your positon.
    See above.

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    Re: Movement under way in California to ban divorce

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Because it is your claim, and as such, you are charged with backing it up.

    You claim "change of focus" is harming marriage.
    You have to back that claim up. To do that, you have to show the original focus, the change of focus, and the effect on the observer.

    YOU chose to define that focus in termns of money spent and advertisement, and so YOU have to show the shift. You THEN have to show the effect on othe observer is one that supports the idea that this change has had a negative effect on marriage.

    If you cannot do these things, thern admit as much and move on.

    And you STILL havent addressed my position - indeed, you have not shown that you inderstand what my position is.
    You keep trying to shift the burden of proof, but I have already stated my case. It should be extremely easy for you to prove me wrong simply by showing how the anti gm money has gone to alleviating the effects of no fault divorce and women leaving home to work on traditional marriage. I don't have to show that it has been shifted anywhere because the position of the anti gm people is that they are preserving traditional marriage, and if that is the case, then most of the money and ad time should be going towards those leading factors. Is that not reasonable? So prove me wrong.

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    Re: Movement under way in California to ban divorce

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Theres no confusion here - you simply havent backed up your positon.
    See above.
    The confusion you seem to have is that I have to show that the money shifted from one position to another. That is not the case. As the position of the anti gm side is that they are preserving traditional marriage, all I have to show is that little to no money has gone towards alleviating the effects of the true leading factors to the decline of traditional marriage. That is my charge, now it is your job to prove me wrong.

    How much money has the anti gm side put towards alleviating the factors of no fault divorce and women leaving home to work versus what they have put towards combating same sex marriage? I argue that they have put little to no money.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 12-02-09 at 03:11 PM.

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    Re: Movement under way in California to ban divorce

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Uh, you're missing a party there. Marriage is a contract made between two consenting, unrelated adults of age with sufficient mental capacity and the state. So yes, the current form of marriage does allow the state to dictate the terms of the contract, at least going forward. Retroactive application to current marriage contracts is likely not constitutional without new laws dictating just that.
    What about the freedom of association? It seems a ban on divorce would infringe upon that right, since it would force an unwanted association on one, or both, of the contracting parties (excluding the state).

    Also, is marriage really a contract between the state and those getting married? What is the consideration between the state the married couple? Isn't it simply the issuance of a liscence, and not necessarily a contract?

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    Re: Movement under way in California to ban divorce

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    You keep trying to shift the burden of proof, but I have already stated my case.
    The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. That's YOU.

    You have stated your position, that a shift of focus has harmed marriage.
    You have fallen -far- short of -proving- that position.

    Show the shift of focus, in your chosen terms of money spent and ads produced, and that said shift has had the efefct you claim --- or, admit you can not.

    It should be extremely easy for you to prove me wrong...
    Its YOUR claim. Its YOUR responsibility to back it up.

    And you STILL havent addressed my position - indeed, you have not shown that you understand what my position is.

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    Re: Movement under way in California to ban divorce

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Divorce doesnt dictate terms, divorce ends the contract, at the request of one or both parties.
    The state's role in divorce is to make sure the rights of those in the marriage are protected.
    I understand. The ability to nullify a contract is a term inherent to the contract. Can the state really dictate that certain contracts may never contain such a precondition? On what basis would they do so?

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    Re: Movement under way in California to ban divorce

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I understand. The ability to nullify a contract is a term inherent to the contract. Can the state really dictate that certain contracts may never contain such a precondition? On what basis would they do so?
    I'd say thet depends entirely on the powers granted to the state by its constitution. There's certainly no federal prohibition of such a thing.

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