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Thread: Major reforms delayed until 2014

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    Re: Major reforms delayed until 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    The Medicare payroll tax doesn't bother me a bit. Medicare recipients now are not paying for all they take out in benefits.
    How are those two thoughts related? The people paying the additional Medicare payroll tax are not the ones receiving the benefits.

    I find the prospect of a non-inflation adjusted surtax on higher incomes to be fine.
    And you and I may see it as fine now, but my point is that it's a near certainty that Congress will start seeing it as "not so fine" at some point over the next 20 years.

    The Medicare cuts are a problem. However, I believe that some form of Paygo will pass the Senate (ala Ryan and Feingold's proposals), and any fixes will be paid for when passed.
    The current incarnation of Paygo is an absolute joke.

    The PAYGO system was reestablished as a standing rule of the House of Representatives (Clause 10 of Rule XXI) on January 4, 2007 by the 110th Congress

    ...

    Less than one year later though, facing widespread demand to ease looming tax burdens caused by the Alternative Minimum Tax, Congress abandoned its pay-go pledge.[16] The point of order was also waived for the Economic Stimulus Act of 2008 which included revenue reducing provisions and increases in spending that increased the deficit, which paygo was designed to prevent. It was again waived in May 2008, upon the consideration of the 2007 U.S. Farm Bill by the House of Representatives.
    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAYGO]PAYGO - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
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    Re: Major reforms delayed until 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    But that projected deficit reduction is largely the result of two things:

    1) The additional Medicare payroll tax, and
    2) The continued cuts in Medicare reimbursements

    I think it's a near-certainty that neither of those things will actually come to pass.

    As to the first one, we can simply look at the AMT for an explanation of why it will never happen. When the AMT was passed, it imposed a minimum tax on a grand total of 155 households. However, because it was not indexed to inflation, it ended up covering a full 20% of the country. Because Congress will never let that happen, they continue to pass an AMT patch that moves the threshold upward.

    Similarly the Medicare payroll tax only kicks in on those households earning over $250k annually. Since this qualifies as "the rich" under Obama's definition, there isn't much outrage. However, that number is also not indexed to inflation, which means that assuming a standard 3% rate of inflation, the additional payroll tax will hit every household earning over $138k by the end of the projected period. There is no way they will let that happen, and as a result, revenues will not even resemble what they're projecting.

    As to the second one, just look at the doctor fix that they're trying to get through right now. As more and more people get added to the system and the number of doctors and specialists remain flat, Medicare payments will have to increase in order to keep doctors within the system. If we're already throwing a couple hundred billion at this problem already, imagine what it will be like 10 or 20 years from now.

    This whole process just makes me sad more than anything else. It's like going to a movie that you've already seen, screaming for the actors not to open the door, and then watching as they get stabbed in the balls yet again. I know how this will play out, and there isn't **** I can do to change that.

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    Re: Major reforms delayed until 2014

    Pay WND $30 to mail my Congressman something that a 19 year old intern will immediately drop in the shredder? No thanks.
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    Re: Major reforms delayed until 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    How are those two thoughts related? The people paying the additional Medicare payroll tax are not the ones receiving the benefits.

    And you and I may see it as fine now, but my point is that it's a near certainty that Congress will start seeing it as "not so fine" at some point over the next 20 years.

    The current incarnation of Paygo is an absolute joke.

    PAYGO - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The two thoughts are related b/c I've long that that Medicare recipients should be paying more for their benefits. Charging more in premiums, means tested, was a method I've been in favor of in the past; but this is fine too.

    I like that it's not inflation-adjusted. Accomplishes the charging more, but means-tested, in an approximate way.


    The Senate does not currrently have any form of PayGo, IIRC. Just the House.

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    Re: Major reforms delayed until 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Now that I like, though I think 50 % would be better.
    .............

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    Re: Major reforms delayed until 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    The two thoughts are related b/c I've long that that Medicare recipients should be paying more for their benefits. Charging more in premiums, means tested, was a method I've been in favor of in the past; but this is fine too.
    But this isn't forcing Medicare recipients to pay more for their benefits. It's forcing people aged 25-65 to pay more in taxes to provide those benefits to people aged 65-110.

    I like that it's not inflation-adjusted. Accomplishes the charging more, but means-tested, in an approximate way.
    My point is that whatever its current value, it will not last.

    The Senate does not currrently have any form of PayGo, IIRC. Just the House.
    And given that the House waives Paygo whenever it feels like it, what makes you think that the Senate version would be any more effective?

    It's like saying that you've quit smoking, except for when you want a cigarette.
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    Re: Major reforms delayed until 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    But this isn't forcing Medicare recipients to pay more for their benefits. It's forcing people aged 25-65 to pay more in taxes to provide those benefits to people aged 65-110.

    My point is that whatever its current value, it will not last.

    And given that the House waives Paygo whenever it feels like it, what makes you think that the Senate version would be any more effective?

    It's like saying that you've quit smoking, except for when you want a cigarette.

    I understand the issue re: current workers and retirees. I'm okay with it. It's not perfect, but at least it's fixing something going forward. I don't know how many retirees can pony up to actually pay for what they are getting. Yup, it's not fair to us younger people, but I don't know what to do about that. Not being able to adequately address that doesn't mean fixing it going forward isn't a good idea.

    Re: PayGo. I believe Ryan's and Feingold's bill is structured differently than the House's, and it will be legislation, rather than Congressional Rules. And, yes, the current House form isn't perfect, but at least they have something. The GOP eliminated PayGo rules instituted by the House. The Dems just brought it back in the last couple years. I'd like to see it legislated, as Ryan/Feingold want to do. I'm sure their legislation will include exceptions and work-arounds, should the need arise. Flexibility in the case of need or emergency is desired, too much isn't.


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    Last edited by jackalope; 11-19-09 at 03:08 PM.

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    Re: Major reforms delayed until 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Pay WND $30 to mail my Congressman something that a 19 year old intern will immediately drop in the shredder? No thanks.
    Clicking on a WND link is more support than I want to give them.
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    Re: Major reforms delayed until 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Pay WND $30 to mail my Congressman something that a 19 year old intern will immediately drop in the shredder? No thanks.
    Did you by chance read post 17?

    They are not shredding them.... at least the ones that want to keep their jobs aren't.

    Of course you can alway call your Congress critter and leave a measage on their machine.
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    Re: Major reforms delayed until 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    Did you by chance read post 17?

    They are not shredding them.... at least the ones that want to keep their jobs aren't.
    Trust me, they're all shredding them.

    Of course you can alway call your Congress critter and leave a measage on their machine.
    Or I could jab myself in the dong with an ice pick. It would have a similar effect on the healthcare bill's progress.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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