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Thread: Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance?

  1. #41
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    Re: Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Here's what I think...

    Fining a class of people that do not buy health insurance, unless there is a trial and a conviction to that end, violates the constitution as a bill of attainder.
    Here's what I think...

    You have absolutely no idea what a bill of attainder is.

    The proposed 2.5% tax/fee/fine/whatever you want to call it is no more a bill of attainder than the income tax is.

    The income tax, by the way, is also not a bill of attainder.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    You're absolutely right, it does make all the difference right now, and the difference is that the system we have right now doesn't work, which is why we're going to try something different.
    Disagree.
    Like any other system dealing with goods and services, the availability of said goods and services is based on your ability to pay for same -- if you cannot pay, you should not receive.

    If the system doent work, it doesnt work because certain people think they and/or others should receive goods and sercvices that they cannot pay for.

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    Re: Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Here's what I think...
    You have absolutely no idea what a bill of attainder is.
    The proposed 2.5% tax/fee/fine/whatever you want to call it is no more a bill of attainder than the income tax is.
    On the contrary -- it is a punishment based on a legislative declaration of guilt w/o benefit of a trial.

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    Re: Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance?

    I always thought the penalty for not having insurance was losing your possessions if you got sick and couldn't pay your bills.

  5. #45
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    Re: Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Disagree.
    Like any other system dealing with goods and services, the availability of said goods and services is based on your ability to pay for same -- if you cannot pay, you should not receive.

    If the system doent work, it doesnt work because certain people think they and/or others should receive goods and sercvices that they cannot pay for.
    Is it your belief, then, that anyone who is unable to pay for their health care (not health insurance, health care) should be denied care?
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    On the contrary -- it is a punishment based on a legislative declaration of guilt w/o benefit of a trial.
    That's what a bill of attainder is, that isn't what this is.

    Like any matter dealing with taxes on your income, you're not automatically guilty just because the government says you are. Nothing in the bill says you're automatically guilty of anything. You are entitled to due process. Nothing in this bill denies you due process.

    Ergo, it is not a bill of attainder.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Is it your belief, then, that anyone who is unable to pay for their health care (not health insurance, health care) should be denied care?
    I would have thought that was clear from my post.

    Yes. Health care consists of goods and services provided by someone else.
    Those that provide these goods and services have a right to be compensated.
    Like any other goods and services you might care to name, if you cannot pay for those goods and services, you should not receive them.

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    Re: Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    That's what a bill of attainder is, that isn't what this is.

    Like any matter dealing with taxes on your income, you're not automatically guilty just because the government says you are. Nothing in the bill says you're automatically guilty of anything. You are entitled to due process. Nothing in this bill denies you due process.
    Show this to be true.

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    Re: Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I would have thought that was clear from my post.

    Yes. Health care consists of goods and services provided by someone else.
    Those that provide these goods and services have a right to be compensated.
    Like any other goods and services you might care to name, if you cannot pay for those goods and services, you should not receive them.
    I guess it's a good thing we don't have to buy the air we breathe.

    That said, as not-thrilled as I am with this bill, I am infinitely glad that currently you can get emergency care even if you're flat broke and worth less than $0. Furthermore, I think any kind of serious health care reform has to have provisions for caring for the flat broke.

    The value of an individual person has nothing to do with their net worth, and I can't see a good argument for letting someone die for lack of care because they have no money with which they can pay for it.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Show this to be true.
    No, no, no. You the one making the accusation that this piece of legislation is a bill of attainder, and it is therefore your job to either prove your accusation to be true or to admit that you can't or won't prove it.

    When you read / skimmed the bill, did you see anything in the language that suggested any sort of bypass of the judicial process?

    A legislative bypass of the judicial process is the very definition of a bill of attainder as the term is defined Constitutionally. If there is no such bypass in this bill, then it is by definition not a bill of attainder.

    I eagerly await your findings.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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