Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 45

Thread: The Vietnam moment

  1. #1
    Guru
    Councilman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Riverside, County, CA.
    Last Seen
    11-04-11 @ 10:16 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    4,454
    Blog Entries
    10

    The Vietnam moment

    FT.com / Comment / Analysis - The Vietnam moment

    By Edward Luce
    Published: October 30 2009 19:50 | Last updated: October 30 2009 19:50
    Seven years ago, Dick Cheney proclaimed: “The Taliban is out of business, permanently.” Last week, the former vice-president came close to accusing Barack Obama of lacking the guts to “do what it takes” to win the war against the very same Taliban.

    Some time in the next two weeks, Mr Obama is likely to bring months of agonised deliberation to a close when he decides how many more troops to send to Afghanistan. The number, which could be as high as the 40,000 recommended by Stanley McChrystal, the general in charge, will be analysed minutely for what it can achieve on the ground in Afghanistan.

    But as Mr Cheney’s contrasting observations illustrate, the more influential war is being fought politically on the ground in America. Somehow, the compulsions of US politics have brought the candidate who electrified America by promising to pull out of Iraq to a position where many of his most ardent backers fear he may be about to get America into another Vietnam.
    I confess that I sometimes make wildly outlandish statements just to piss a few people off. This is not one of those occasions.
    To eliminate any and all comparisons to Vietnam it is necessary to decide not to let it by being determined to win and you can't do that with incremental steps as Obama is apparently considering. That is exactly what we did that made it impossible to win in Vietnam. Politicians limited the scope and even picked targets. Wars need to be fought to win with over whelming force to save lives on our side and civilians as well
    Obama knows less about how to win a war than he does about fixing the economy which is nothing. He is listening most to people who know the least and giving lip service to the Generals. His whole trip to Dover was to throw off criticism and make believe he cares and is giving serious measured thought to the issue.
    All he really cares about is the next party or trip to someplace he can be the center of attention.

  2. #2
    Familiaist


    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    North Carolina
    Last Seen
    11-16-16 @ 09:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    7,470

    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    FT.com / Comment / Analysis - The Vietnam moment

    By Edward Luce
    Published: October 30 2009 19:50 | Last updated: October 30 2009 19:50

    I confess that I sometimes make wildly outlandish statements just to piss a few people off. This is not one of those occasions.
    To eliminate any and all comparisons to Vietnam it is necessary to decide not to let it by being determined to win and you can't do that with incremental steps as Obama is apparently considering. That is exactly what we did that made it impossible to win in Vietnam. Politicians limited the scope and even picked targets. Wars need to be fought to win with over whelming force to save lives on our side and civilians as well
    Obama knows less about how to win a war than he does about fixing the economy which is nothing. He is listening most to people who know the least and giving lip service to the Generals. His whole trip to Dover was to throw off criticism and make believe he cares and is giving serious measured thought to the issue.
    All he really cares about is the next party or trip to someplace he can be the center of attention.

    The bold highlights a problem that reoccures, seemingly, with every war; How should authority be shared (within a war) between the civil sphere (politicians) and military sphere (generals)?

    It's evident that Politicans are not Generals, nor do most of them have the requirements to make military decisions... however.. because we're a Republic our Senators and Representatives are the our voices.

    If in wartime our Military is allowed to make decisions without Washington, then we hinder any sort of "Republic" notion that we boast. The biggest fear, especially with Vietnam, is that the military was able to swell troop forces without any oversight.

    Generals and Military Leadership usually discusses or admits futility whenever they resign-- never on duty.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

  3. #3
    Count Smackula
    rathi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    10-31-15 @ 10:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    7,890

    Re: The Vietnam moment

    The problem with wars the Afghanistan and Vietnam is that it is not our military that matters, but the government we are trying to prop up. Our strategy is doomed unless we have a plan that lets Karzai actually get the power to rule the country by himself. That is a political goal, and an extremely challenging one to meet. We can deploy all the troops we like, but unless a non-taliban government can stand on its own, military power simply isn't going to be enough.

  4. #4
    Familiaist


    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    North Carolina
    Last Seen
    11-16-16 @ 09:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    7,470

    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    The problem with wars the Afghanistan and Vietnam is that it is not our military that matters, but the government we are trying to prop up. Our strategy is doomed unless we have a plan that lets Karzai actually get the power to rule the country by himself. That is a political goal, and an extremely challenging one to meet. We can deploy all the troops we like, but unless a non-taliban government can stand on its own, military power simply isn't going to be enough.
    Agreed.

    That and we are trying to legitimize a government when the people don't even.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

  5. #5
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,465

    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    The bold highlights a problem that reoccures, seemingly, with every war; How should authority be shared (within a war) between the civil sphere (politicians) and military sphere (generals)?

    It's evident that Politicans are not Generals, nor do most of them have the requirements to make military decisions... however.. because we're a Republic our Senators and Representatives are the our voices.

    If in wartime our Military is allowed to make decisions without Washington, then we hinder any sort of "Republic" notion that we boast. The biggest fear, especially with Vietnam, is that the military was able to swell troop forces without any oversight.

    Generals and Military Leadership usually discusses or admits futility whenever they resign-- never on duty.

    It's simple. The president tells his military chain of command what end result he is looking for and the military carries out operation in accordance with that intent.

    Congress has nothing to do with strategic/tactical decisions.


    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    The problem with wars the Afghanistan and Vietnam is that it is not our military that matters, but the government we are trying to prop up. Our strategy is doomed unless we have a plan that lets Karzai actually get the power to rule the country by himself. That is a political goal, and an extremely challenging one to meet. We can deploy all the troops we like, but unless a non-taliban government can stand on its own, military power simply isn't going to be enough.
    That will enver happen, until the enemy no longer has the ability to wage war.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  6. #6
    Count Smackula
    rathi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    10-31-15 @ 10:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    7,890

    Re: The Vietnam moment

    That will enver happen, until the enemy no longer has the ability to wage war.
    If what you said was actually true, than we should leave immediately. Attrition is not a workable strategy against a foe who dictates when and where all attacks take place. We will run out of money and political support long before the Taliban are destroyed. The Russians failed in such a strategy, and we will have no greater success if we repeat their mistakes.

  7. #7
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,465

    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    If what you said was actually true, than we should leave immediately. Attrition is not a workable strategy against a foe who dictates when and where all attacks take place.
    It is if he consistantly loses ten times more fighters than we do.

    We will run out of money and political support long before the Taliban are destroyed.
    Not if we ramp up the violence against the enemy and cause his KIA's to double, or even triple.

    The Russians failed in such a strategy, and we will have no greater success if we repeat their mistakes.
    The Soviet Strategy was to kill everybody, not just the Mujahadeen and it was working, until American weapons and training caused a route of their forces. The biggest mistake that the Soviets made, really, was that they were trying to fight an modern armored war in the mountains. They failed to adjust to the enemy's new engagement techniques. It's ironic, that the North Vietnamese Communists invented modern un-conventional warfare and the Soviets never once attempted to draw on that knowledge to help the situation in Afghanistan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  8. #8
    Count Smackula
    rathi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    10-31-15 @ 10:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    7,890

    Re: The Vietnam moment

    It is if he consistantly loses ten times more fighters than we do.
    Afghanistan has a population of 28 million people. Lets say 1% are fighters that we need to kill or 280,000. Keeping with your 10 to 1 kill ratio, we lose 28,000 soldiers. That is politically unsustainable, and would be far more costly than any terrorist attack upon us.

    Not if we ramp up the violence against the enemy and cause his KIA's to double, or even triple.
    Completely irrelevant. Such minor differences would not change the outcome.

    The Soviet Strategy was to kill everybody, not just the Mujahadeen and it was working, until American weapons and training caused a route of their forces. The biggest mistake that the Soviets made, really, was that they were trying to fight an modern armored war in the mountains. They failed to adjust to the enemy's new engagement techniques. It's ironic, that the North Vietnamese Communists invented modern un-conventional warfare and the Soviets never once attempted to draw on that knowledge to help the situation in Afghanistan.
    You seriously think that Soviets were routed?

  9. #9
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,465

    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Afghanistan has a population of 28 million people. Lets say 1% are fighters that we need to kill or 280,000. Keeping with your 10 to 1 kill ratio, we lose 28,000 soldiers. That is politically unsustainable, and would be far more costly than any terrorist attack upon us.
    It wouldn't be necessary to every single one of them. Besides, as they lost combat power, the kill ratio would rise.



    Completely irrelevant. Such minor differences would not change the outcome.
    It's worked every other time it's been done. Why won't it work now? What are you basing your opinion on?



    You seriously think that Soviets were routed?
    Oh yeah, with their tales between their legs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #10
    Count Smackula
    rathi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    10-31-15 @ 10:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    7,890

    Re: The Vietnam moment

    It wouldn't be necessary to every single one of them. Besides, as they lost combat power, the kill ratio would rise.
    This isn't divisional level maneuvers, its small decentralized groups.

    It's worked every other time it's been done. Why won't it work now? What are you basing your opinion on?
    It completely failed in Vietnam, Algeria, and Afghanistan. It won't work because our enemy is numerous, they hold the initiative, and we cannot afford to sustain large numbers of casualties.

    Oh yeah, with their tales between their legs.
    Have you ever cracked a history book? The Soviets left after operations became too costly. To call it a rout would be a lie.

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •