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Thread: The Vietnam moment

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Thanks, apdst! Let's work with this. Advantage: we don't have to invade Pakistan and create an additional mess.

    1) "We should totaly destroy Tally forces in Afghanistan"
    - takes a lot of troops engaged in COIN ops. Need intel. Good partnerships with the locals. Need a surge of forces. Anything else?

    2) "concentrating them inside Pakistan"
    - ok

    3) "making them an easier target for the Paki forces"
    - let's check out where the Pakis are fighting
    Pakistan provinces/states/agencies:
    Balochistan: Baluchistan province, Kalat, Kharan, Las Bela, and Mekran states

    Federally Administered Tribal Areas: Khyber, Kurram, Malakand, North Waziristan, and South Waziristan agencies

    North-West Frontier: North-West Frontier province, Amb, Chitral, Dir, Nagir Phulra, and Swat states
    I've highlighted the ones I think I remember hearing about in the news. I am sure there are others like the ones in Baluchistan. Paki forces are in Swat. The Taliban forces entering AFG are in at least North and South Waziristan and North-West Frontier province. Khyber is where our supply lines are being attacked.

    So, is Pakistan willing and able to go after these guys?

    4) "denying them any escape from Paki forces into Afghanistan"
    - So we have to secure the border. That is a tough border to secure. It is long, hard terrain, weather vulnerable. No vehicles. We need MORE troops.

    5) "If we deny the Tals's ability to maneuver, we take away alot of their combat power"
    - Does this apply to un-conventional forces? They can melt away since their attacks are non-linear.

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    1) "We should totaly destroy Tally forces in Afghanistan"
    - takes a lot of troops engaged in COIN ops. Need intel. Good partnerships with the locals. Need a surge of forces. Anything else?
    Agreed.

    2) "concentrating them inside Pakistan"
    - ok
    OK.

    3) "making them an easier target for the Paki forces"
    - let's check out where the Pakis are fighting
    Pakistan provinces/states/agencies:


    I've highlighted the ones I think I remember hearing about in the news. I am sure there are others like the ones in Baluchistan. Paki forces are in Swat. The Taliban forces entering AFG are in at least North and South Waziristan and North-West Frontier province. Khyber is where our supply lines are being attacked.

    So, is Pakistan willing and able to go after these guys?
    "Able"?, yes. "Willing"?, maybe not as much, but I think if American forces did more to hamstring the Tallies, it might encourage pak forces to become more aggresive.

    4) "denying them any escape from Paki forces into Afghanistan"
    - So we have to secure the border. That is a tough border to secure. It is long, hard terrain, weather vulnerable. No vehicles. We need MORE troops.
    There's no way to totaly seal any border, but if we can seal the border to the point that you take away the enemy's ability to effectively come and go, then you've achieved a great deal. IMO.

    5) "If we deny the Tals's ability to maneuver, we take away alot of their combat power"
    - Does this apply to un-conventional forces? They can melt away since their attacks are non-linear.

    Any combat force has to be able to shoot, move and communicate. It's the pinciple of warfare and will never change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    "Able"?, yes. "Willing"?, maybe not as much, but I think if American forces did more to hamstring the Tallies, it might encourage pak forces to become more aggresive.
    It would be awfully nice to have Pakis squeeze the Tallies from one district to another, while the US focuses on that part of the border, in order to conserve limited force. With the way the diplomatic situation seems to be going, that kind of coordination may be wishful thinking.

    There's no way to totaly seal any border, but if we can seal the border to the point that you take away the enemy's ability to effectively come and go, then you've achieved a great deal. IMO.
    Agreed.

    Any combat force has to be able to shoot, move and communicate. It's the pinciple of warfare and will never change.
    Ok, that makes sense. How does an insurgent Talli terrorist group move? The certainly engage either from a distance with IEDs, or en mass when they have the superior force.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 11-01-09 at 01:47 PM.

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    It would be awfully nice to have Pakis squeeze the Tallies from one district to another, while the US focuses on that part of the border, in order to conserve limited force. With the way the diplomatic situation seems to be going, what kind of coordination may be wishful thinking.
    I believe the diplomatic situation may improve if we are able to neutralize Tally operations in Afghanistan. Then, we could tell the Paks, "ok, we killed them all on our end, we'll block the exit door, while you mop them up on your end". It's hard to insist that the Paks do more, when we have a CIC that is considering doing less.



    [/quote]Ok, that makes sense. How does an insurgent Talli terrorist group move? The certainly engage either from a distance with IEDs, or en mass when they have the superior force.[/QUOTE]


    An un-conventional unit has to be able to maneuver, either to put themselves in a tactically adventageous positon over the enemy, or to escape a situation that isn't to their advantage, or move to a position where they can conduct recovery and reconstitution operations. They have to be able to move around to move and secure beans and bullets. If they can't re-supply, can't maneuver tactically, nor escape a bad scene, then it nothing but a matter of time before they're all destroyed.

    The North Vietnamese were able to use Cambodia as a supply route and as sanctuary. The Tallies are doing then same thing in Afghaistan and Pakistan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    The problem with wars the Afghanistan and Vietnam is that it is not our military that matters, but the government we are trying to prop up. Our strategy is doomed unless we have a plan that lets Karzai actually get the power to rule the country by himself. That is a political goal, and an extremely challenging one to meet. We can deploy all the troops we like, but unless a non-taliban government can stand on its own, military power simply isn't going to be enough.
    The main focus of our being there must always be the same as the initial reason for going there. That being the capture of Bin Laden and the removal from power the Taliban. To keep the Taliban from ever returning to power and in doing so threatening not only the U.S. but the west in general is to destroy it completely and that can only be done with over whelming force. Once that is achieved the people will be more likely to fall into support of it's own government. Sadly when corruption is at the core of the government in power it complicates every thing and makes all progress problematic.
    Karzai is and educated man who needs to be persuaded that it is in his best interest to clean his house of corruption or we as a government must make sure he is removed one way or the other. Sometimes the peace of the world out weighs anyone person. And I'm not saying to kill him. There are ways we could under mine his grip on power.

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    I love America, and would normally support the idea of carrying fire and sword into the heartland of the enemy. But not this time. American forces are operating under the command of a man who is ambivalent about their mission and their lives. Want an example? How about the fact that Obama has changed the rules of engagement for the use of smart bombs against the Taliban and Al Qaeda when civilians are present. Imo the result is fewer Taliban and AQ deaths, and more American deaths.

    Obama is not concerned about victory or the national interest. He's concerned about not suffering political damage from his campaign lie that he would wage a necessary war in Afghanistan. Have you noticed there are apparently no Obama supporters on this thread? There's a reason for that. They can't articulate a defense of their president on this issue, and thus avoid engagement.

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I believe the diplomatic situation may improve if we are able to neutralize Tally operations in Afghanistan. Then, we could tell the Paks, "ok, we killed them all on our end, we'll block the exit door, while you mop them up on your end".
    What do we do if Pak doesn't play ball?

    It's hard to insist that the Paks do more, when we have a CIC that is considering doing less.
    CIC is probably waiting on NATO commitment and Pak commitment before deciding. He may have more than one scenario with different strategies/force levels.

    I note that we haven't even talked about the impact on successful COIN from the Kabul government, corrupt as it seems to be.

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    We should totaly destroy Tally forces in Afghanistan, thereby concentrating them inside Pakistan, making them an easier target for the Paki forces and denying them any escape from Paki forces into Afghanistan. If we deny the Tals's ability to maneuver, we take away alot of their combat power.
    When the Taliban live with the people and dress like the people how do you tell them from the people?

    OBL 11/24/02

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    When the Taliban live with the people and dress like the people how do you tell them from the people?
    I thought the Taliban were the ones with the black towels around their heads.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    What do we do if Pak doesn't play ball?
    I don't have an answer for that one, but I still maintain that getting them to play ball might be much easier if we covered all the bases. Think about it from Pakistan's position: why should they become embroiled in a slug fest with the Tallies, when all they've seen America do for the last 30 years, is leave and not finish the job?



    CIC is probably waiting on NATO commitment and Pak commitment before deciding. He may have more than one scenario with different strategies/force levels.
    PBO is the leader of the free world. It's time for him to start leading.

    I note that we haven't even talked about the impact on successful COIN from the Kabul government, corrupt as it seems to be.
    I don't think that we'll be able to immediately count on that kind of asset from the Karzai government. If we up-n-leave, we can guarantee that it'll never happen.


    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    When the Taliban live with the people and dress like the people how do you tell them from the people?

    Simple, shoot the guys that are carrying the weapons. And, yes, it's going to be time consuming. That's not a reason to just give up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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