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Thread: The Vietnam moment

  1. #11
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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    This isn't divisional level maneuvers, its small decentralized groups.
    I understand that. Hence reason to overwhelm them with superior numbers and violence of action. Hunt them down where they live and kill them.



    It completely failed in Vietnam, Algeria, and Afghanistan. It won't work because our enemy is numerous, they hold the initiative, and we cannot afford to sustain large numbers of casualties.
    It didn't happen in any of those places, however it did work in WW2, WW1 and The Civil War.



    Have you ever cracked a history book? The Soviets left after operations became too costly. To call it a rout would be a lie.
    The Soviets incurred over a half million casualties. Not only did they retreat, because the war cost to much, but because they were losing people left and right to combat causlties and sickness. That's out of 620,000 Soviet troops that served during the entire war. No, calling it a route wouldn't be a lie. The Soviets got their asses handed to them, plain and simple.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    I understand that. Hence reason to overwhelm them with superior numbers and violence of action. Hunt them down where they live and kill them.
    Right, except they can hide in caves, mountains or even villages. We can't/couldn't find OBL in 8 years.


    It didn't happen in any of those places, however it did work in WW2, WW1 and The Civil War.
    Notice how all those foes were highly organized and faced us on the open field of battle, which is the complete opposite of the situation we face in Afghanistan.

    The Soviets incurred over a half million casualties. Not only did they retreat, because the war cost to much, but because they were losing people left and right to combat causlties and sickness. That's out of 620,000 Soviet troops that served during the entire war. No, calling it a route wouldn't be a lie. The Soviets got their asses handed to them, plain and simple.
    90% of the soviet "casualties" were soldiers who got sick from miserable sanitary conditions.Around 15k died and another 50k were actually injured. The soviets ended with a planned withdrawal, after the successful Operation Magistral. Calling it a rout is simply false. Dien Bien Phu is rout, both the USSR and US ended wars because they were simply not worth the cost.

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Right, except they can hide in caves, mountains or even villages.
    Then, we'll just have to go in and get them, or pump poison gas into the caves. Whatever.


    We can't/couldn't find OBL in 8 years.
    We can't find him because he's dead.




    Notice how all those foes were highly organized and faced us on the open field of battle, which is the complete opposite of the situation we face in Afghanistan.
    Irrelevant.



    90% of the soviet "casualties" were soldiers who got sick from miserable sanitary conditions.Around 15k died and another 50k were actually injured. The soviets ended with a planned withdrawal, after the successful Operation Magistral. Calling it a rout is simply false. Dien Bien Phu is rout, both the USSR and US ended wars because they were simply not worth the cost.

    No, Dien Bien Phu was a surrender...LOL!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It's simple. The president tells his military chain of command what end result he is looking for and the military carries out operation in accordance with that intent.

    Congress has nothing to do with strategic/tactical decisions.

    .
    Military gets no say in the end goal?

    and by nothing you mean... they determine monetary issues so they get to decide a heck of a lot more than you hope they do
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Military gets no say in the end goal?
    The military has most of the say, or should, anyway.

    and by nothing you mean... they determine monetary issues so they get to decide a heck of a lot more than you hope they do

    Congress's authority ends there. They have no authority to give orders to the military, concerning tactics and strategy. The only civilian that has that authority is the president. There are no members of Congress in the chain of command.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rathi
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst
    Hunt them down where they live and kill them.
    Right, except they can hide in caves, mountains or even villages.
    Then, we'll just have to go in and get them, or pump poison gas into the caves. Whatever.
    Of course, they spend the winters and regroup in Pakistan, their sanctuary. Are we to go in and get them there? If not, we should head home.

  7. #17
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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Of course, they spend the winters and regroup in Pakistan, their sanctuary. Are we to go in and get them there? If not, we should head home.
    I agree that if we're not going to fight the war right, we should leave, but leaving shouldn't be a solution to ending the war as some have suggested.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I agree that if we're not going to fight the war right, we should leave, but leaving shouldn't be a solution to ending the war as some have suggested.
    I agree that "leaving shouldn't be a solution to ending the war".

    So to carry the argument forward for entering Pakistan to address the sanctuaries, let's look at the diplomatic situation between the US and Pakistan.

    From the current trip to Pakistan by Hillary Clinton:
    Clinton in Pakistan encounters widespread distrust of U.S. -- latimes.com
    Pakistanis confront Clinton over drone attacks - Yahoo! News
    Clinton scolds Pakistan over inaction on al-Qaida - Yahoo! News
    Clinton: Pakistan in danger - CNN.com

    It doesn't look like Pakistan is going to invite us to join them against the sanctuaries - plural. Should we enter nonetheless?

    What should we do?
    Last edited by reefedjib; 11-01-09 at 12:19 PM.

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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I agree that "leaving shouldn't be a solution to ending the war".

    So to carry the argument forward for entering Pakistan to address the sanctuaries, let's look at the diplomatic situation between the US and Pakistan.

    From the current trip to Pakistan by Hillary Clinton:
    Clinton in Pakistan encounters widespread distrust of U.S. -- latimes.com
    Pakistanis confront Clinton over drone attacks - Yahoo! News
    Clinton scolds Pakistan over inaction on al-Qaida - Yahoo! News
    Clinton: Pakistan in danger - CNN.com

    It doesn't look like Pakistan is going to invite us to join them against the sanctuaries - plural. Should we enter nonetheless?

    What should we do?

    We should totaly destroy Tally forces in Afghanistan, thereby concentrating them inside Pakistan, making them an easier target for the Paki forces and denying them any escape from Paki forces into Afghanistan. If we deny the Tals's ability to maneuver, we take away alot of their combat power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #20
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    Re: The Vietnam moment

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Military gets no say in the end goal?

    Not since WWII.

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