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Thread: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity charges

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    Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Then you're a hypocrite. Sorry.

    What's wrong with simply letting me draw the line for me? I'll watch what I think is right, and not what I think isn't.



    Sure is. And we all disagree on it. So just let each person decide what they watch.



    That's true. I think we shun it publicly but eat it up privately. Nothing new about that, many societies treat sex that way.

    There's another paradox we have though - we shun sex and porn, but eagerly embrace violence.
    Because what you think is right is not necessarily right. In much the same way that you view censorship as a breach of your rights, society at large can view your pleasures as violating the rights of others (if, say, you leave your incredibly vague notion stand as an absolute position). I'm sure you are willing to give way to exceptions to that rule.

    My position was vague in the acceptance of certain pornography. Likewise, I am hesitant to quite figure out what should be legislated against other than some of the more obvious (child porn featuring child actors is to me, something that obviously should be censored).

    Again, just because we observe these paradoxes does not mean that societies should thus have no paradoxes in morality. In my view, that is how societies operate best, with some measure of reason, of course.
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  2. #182
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    Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Because what you think is right is not necessarily right. In much the same way that you view censorship as a breach of your rights, society at large can view your pleasures as violating the rights of others (if, say, you leave your incredibly vague notion stand as an absolute position). I'm sure you are willing to give way to exceptions to that rule.
    How does me viewing porn in my own home violate anyone's rights?

    My position was vague in the acceptance of certain pornography. Likewise, I am hesitant to quite figure out what should be legislated against other than some of the more obvious (child porn featuring child actors is to me, something that obviously should be censored).
    Yes, we agree on child porn, because you have to abuse kids to make it.

    Again, just because we observe these paradoxes does not mean that societies should thus have no paradoxes in morality. In my view, that is how societies operate best, with some measure of reason, of course.
    Why? I don't need paradoxes. We got rid of the "all men are create equal" yet we own slaves parodox, didn't we?

  3. #183
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    Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    How does me viewing porn in my own home violate anyone's rights?



    Yes, we agree on child porn, because you have to abuse kids to make it.



    Why? I don't need paradoxes. We got rid of the "all men are create equal" yet we own slaves parodox, didn't we?
    You answered your first question with the next line of text.

    Paradoxes: I said within reason. Enslaving other human beings is more difficult to connect to two very broad observations:

    1) We are a sexual culture who shuns sex

    2) We are a violent culture who likes violence

    One certainly is a lot more specific than these two very generalized observations, and are not on an equal playing field of how to debate the subject.

    But remember how I said I believe all humans are hypocrites, it just takes time to figure out where. Human beings do not operate on a purely rational realm, and thus it is difficult to expect society at large to be able to also operate on a purely rational level. Societies at some point decide what to make taboo or illegal and which to be tolerant or allow at the taboo level, or celebrated. Societies are going to be paradoxical, so on a broad level, I accept the notion that we legislate morality.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 11-23-09 at 03:44 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    But remember how I said I believe all humans are hypocrites, it just takes time to figure out where. Human beings do not operate on a purely rational realm, and thus it is difficult to expect society at large to be able to also operate on a purely rational level.
    Why not?

    Why can't humans be hypocrites but society leave them alone? Why can't we put our irrational heads together and build a rational society? If we didn't strive for that, we wouldn't have a society at all, or rule of law, or any of that stuff.

    Societies at some point decide what to make taboo or illegal and which to be tolerant or allow at the taboo level, or celebrated. Societies are going to be paradoxical, so on a broad level, I accept the notion that we legislate morality.
    I don't.

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    Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    There's another paradox we have though - we shun sex and porn, but eagerly embrace violence.
    Kori touched on a potential reason for this actually.

    The laws in this country are far more constricting when it comes to violence then sex. Outside of rape, there’s few things sexually that are truly illegal in a practical way (not counting blue laws). So most of the more “deviant” sexual fetishes and fantasies, while shunned by society, are perfectly able to be done freely and legally in our private lives.

    Violence on the other hand does not have that luxury, instead is restricted by numerous laws. You can have some kinky sex if you want with handcuffs and whips, but going to the local bar and punching someone in the face can net you some time in jail or doing community service. As such, where sex is more societal looked down upon, violence is more judiciously looked down upon. Since you can act out the sexual things that are viewed as deviant the need for other outlets is not as large or not as main stream. Since the outlets for violence are more legal it seems to vent itself into more main stream ways of expression through escapism in books, movies, video games, TV Shows, etc.

    However, even in regards to violence, there is still taboos. Violence is usually either viewed gratuitously as a bad or frightening thing (such as SAW), in a heroic or brave thing (such as war games or cops movies like Die Hard), or as a retribution/just revenge thing (Boondock Saints, Max Payne). Other times the violence may be glamorized for the bad guy who is the main character but then tries to recant that life style (Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction) or we see the violence/evil of the main character be their downfall in some way (Scarface). Rarely do you see in mainstream where violence, channeled equally in a societal “negative” way, being glamorized. Instead it generally is images of violence that part of societies fabric wants to feel is “good” but knows legally is “bad” and thus this is their outlet for it.

    The judiciously dissuaded compared to societal dissuaded is the big difference in them I believe. In one case you can do the act privately without life changing ramifications, in the other you can’t and thus an outlet needs to be made more readily available for it subconsciously through the society.

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    Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Likely, I am somewhat at comfort with the society we have, which is entirely paradoxical. We are obviously a very sexual culture that provides profit to the porn industry, yet we shun it. I'm comfortable with that notion.
    To the extent this is true, that's a big part of why "society" is sick. Once you're a hypocrite and shrug it off by telling yourself "oh well, everyone is a hypocrite," you'll ultimately stand for any bigotry and any hypocrisy. Eventually it may be sex-negative bigots/hypocrites who are shunned. I'm comfortable with that notion.
    Last edited by Sov; 11-23-09 at 04:16 PM.
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    Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Kori touched on a potential reason for this actually.

    The laws in this country are far more constricting when it comes to violence then sex. Outside of rape, there’s few things sexually that are truly illegal in a practical way (not counting blue laws).
    I'm not so sure about that, but let's continue...

    So most of the more “deviant” sexual fetishes and fantasies, while shunned by society, are perfectly able to be done freely and legally in our private lives.

    Violence on the other hand does not have that luxury, instead is restricted by numerous laws. You can have some kinky sex if you want with handcuffs and whips, but going to the local bar and punching someone in the face can net you some time in jail or doing community service. As such, where sex is more societal looked down upon, violence is more judiciously looked down upon. Since you can act out the sexual things that are viewed as deviant the need for other outlets is not as large or not as main stream. Since the outlets for violence are more legal it seems to vent itself into more main stream ways of expression through escapism in books, movies, video games, TV Shows, etc.

    However, even in regards to violence, there is still taboos. Violence is usually either viewed gratuitously as a bad or frightening thing (such as SAW), in a heroic or brave thing (such as war games or cops movies like Die Hard), or as a retribution/just revenge thing (Boondock Saints, Max Payne). Other times the violence may be glamorized for the bad guy who is the main character but then tries to recant that life style (Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction) or we see the violence/evil of the main character be their downfall in some way (Scarface). Rarely do you see in mainstream where violence, channeled equally in a societal “negative” way, being glamorized. Instead it generally is images of violence that part of societies fabric wants to feel is “good” but knows legally is “bad” and thus this is their outlet for it.

    The judiciously dissuaded compared to societal dissuaded is the big difference in them I believe. In one case you can do the act privately without life changing ramifications, in the other you can’t and thus an outlet needs to be made more readily available for it subconsciously through the society.
    Interesting idea, but I see one big problem - many people can't actually act out their sexual fantasies, because they don't have a willing partner or feel ashamed of them.

    But let me point out that my main concern with sex vs. violence is the ridiculous idea that porn is harmful to society, yet violence in media is embraced as if it's not.

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    Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

    Quote Originally Posted by Sov View Post
    To the extent this is true, that's a big part of why "society" is sick. Eventually it may be sex-negative bigots/hypocrites who are shunned. I'm comfortable with that notion.
    You know where the term "sex-negative" comes from don't you?

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    Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    You know where the term "sex-negative" comes from don't you?
    Wilhelm Reich.

    People who benefit from porn in private and condemn it in public should be called out on it. I'm reminded of Mark Foley, the Republican Congressman from Florida who was tenacious in attempting to limit free expression. He even wrote and introduced a bill to ban "underage" modeling. Soon after he got caught flirting with an "underage" male page.

    Serves the piece of sh!t right.
    Last edited by Sov; 11-23-09 at 04:20 PM.
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    Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I'm not anywhere near the extreme of Riv. Riv, you know for a fact you're far from the average person sexually. Both in mentality and just background/history. In general, in a society, what is "normal" is defined by the majority. The same goes with what's "degrading". Its akin to public nudity. YOU may not find public nudity as offensive. However, because the majority of our society views gratuitous nudity as offensive its not allowed out in public, its not "normal". Just because you don't find it offensive doesn't mean, in a general sense, its "offensive". You could view personally find it degrading if someone calls you a Lazy Mother****er whose enormous stupidity is only surpased by the size of your ass because you don't let peoples words hurt you. That doesn't change the fact that "normally" or "generally" such comments are viewed as degrading. As such, yes, the majority of society and normal social standards views choking a woman while you gag her on your member before turning her around and using the resulting saliva as lubricant as "degrading" even if you don't on a personal level, and therefore in a general sense it is a "degrading" act.
    First off, I'm not as "out there" as some of you think. I just defend A LOT of things that are. I defend countless things that I find personally repulsive, because I don't think my opinion is the be all, end all. I live firmly and strongly by the old adage "I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." And I WILL. That goes for hardcore, disgusting, 'perverted', repulsive, violent porn, as well as the KKK, Christians, Jews, Muslims, the Black Panthers, so on and so forth.

    Now, it doesn't matter what people "generally" find degrading. That's my point. My point is NOT that people might find it degrading, or disgusting, or repulsive. I share some of that sentiment with many things. What I do NOT share is the notion that I should be allowed to ban the things I find disgusting. If I find something bothersome, I just avoid it. It's such a simple fix to the "problem" and yet so many are unable to do it. Just avoid whatever it is that you allow to bother you. If you find porn disgusting, don't watch it. If you find only certain kinds of porn disgusting, then don't watch those kinds of porn. This answer makes everyone happy, yet there are those who don't wish to do that. Instead, they find their opinions to be better than my own, their judgment better than mine and are arrogant enough to think they need to "protect" me.

    I disagree, strongly, with the notion that those that are watching this kind of "degredation" porn, especially men, are doing so while not thinking its degrading and that's why they like it. Much like rape, this kind of thing is the feeling of power. This kind of porn is popular amongst men I would imagine because its giving that alpha male mentality where a woman is nothing but a sex toy to do with and use as you see fit, but because the girl is submissive instead of flat out resisting its not "rape" so they can justify it in their mind. Its the same kind of guys that in college that would laugh about how they slipped it in the backdoor and made her scream, but she kept coming back the next week cause he was an upper classman and had bear.
    Women watch it too, being that rape fantasies ARE the number one female fantasy.

    In college either 1st or 2nd hand I knew of plenty of girls, usually under classman, that ended up doing degrading type things in regards to sex. From being passed around to a variety of partners, to forced anal, to public sex, and onwards. Often, I'd wager, the girls did not do this because they got some kind of actual sexual thrill from it as much as for exterior reasons....popularity, acceptance, social status, booze, etc. I believe what Kori is arguing is that porn of this type gives people, especially men in this case, the idea that these kind of actions are okay, acceptable, and that women in general, not a minority of them, enjoy these kind of acts.
    Whether or not they enjoy it is not for you to determine. It's for THEM to determine. Their reasons for doing it are their own, as are the consequences should there be any. As long as they do it willingly, that's all that matters. It matters NOT why they did it. Could be for popularity. Could be for a sorority shenanigan. Could be for a ****ing term paper, I don't know and I don't care. All anyone needs to be concerned with is that they do it of their own free will.

    I think this is where society fails in some of these aspects. So often you have one of two extreme's, and that's it. You have the people on one side that get offended by something that is outside the norm and instead of just treating it as abnormal, avoiding it, and discouraging it, they try to ban it. On the other side you have people that try to promote the abnormal/bad/deviant as something that is normal/good/healthy and completely fully acceptable for everyone in every way. Middle ground generally is only reached when one side is stopped and the issue is forced into the middle through gridlock.
    No one has said that anything in porn is "for everyone".

    The middle ground is "to each their own".

    Abnormal doesn't necessarily mean bad.
    In some cases, it's very very good.

    In regards to something like pornography or video games, restrictions on age are acceptable to me for the reasos stated above with obscenity laws. However, once such things are enacted, the scope of the benefit of outright bannishment shrinks and thus the needed positives of bannishment do not outweigh the negatives of it to me.
    I agree.

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