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Thread: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

  1. #41
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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You have the right to arms.
    You have the right to assemble.
    You have the right to associate.

    Under what argument can you not exercise all three rights at the same time?

    Heller, penned by Scalia, cites
    Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 (1886), held that the right to keep and bear arms was not violated by a law that forbade “bodies of men to associate together as military organizations, or to drill or parade with arms in cities and towns unless authorized by law.” Id., at 264–265. This does not refute the individual-rights interpretation of the Amendment; no one supporting that interpretation has contended that States may not ban such groups. JUSTICE STEVENS presses Presser into service to support his view that the right to bear arms is limited to service in the militia by joining Presser’s brief discussion of the Second Amendment with a later portion of the opinion making the seemingly relevant (to the Second Amendment) point thatthe plaintiff was not a member of the state militia. Unfortunately for JUSTICE STEVENS’ argument, that later portion deals with the Fourteenth Amendment; it was the Fourteenth Amendment to which the plaintiff’s nonmembership in the militia was relevant. Thus, JUSTICE STEVENS’ statement that Presser “suggested that. . . nothing in the Constitution protected the use of arms outside the context of a militia,” post, at 40, is simply wrong. Presser said nothing about the Second Amendment’s meaning or scope, beyond the fact that it does not prevent the prohibition of private paramilitary organizations.
    http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, it's not that it wasn't arguments that I didn't like. But rather you weren't paying attention and comprehending what I wrote for some reason. That's why I said stop. If you were to continue on the same path, it's pointless because you don't actually address anything. You said the same stuff, which had been debunked. If you were to do it again, then there's no point in trying to move forward. That's why I asked you to stop. Either actually read what's being written, or stop wasting time and space. That's all.

    And just because I can argue from a position doesn't necessarily mean I support the position. It just means I can understand and comprehend where the argument comes from. Not that I necessarily agree with the base, especially when I had clearly stated that I do not. I tend to oppose most forms of government registration and databasing.

    You are the one who isn't paying attention. You maintain that militia in the 2nd amendment is somehow different than militia Article 1. It's not. The court has specifically said they are the same thing.

  3. #43
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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    You are the one who isn't paying attention. You maintain that militia in the 2nd amendment is somehow different than militia Article 1. It's not. The court has specifically said they are the same thing.
    Wow. Ok, we're done. There is no coherent argument here. I've already told you why this doesn't hold up previously. You're merely continuing in ignoring my arguments and saying the same things which have previously been disproved.

    You're lying about me, BTW, to make a point. I never said the two militia's were different. This is why I said stop earlier. You're engaging is some seriously intellectually dishonest tactics and it's not driving the debate in any positive manner.
    Last edited by Ikari; 10-30-09 at 03:38 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    ...Which has what to do with owning a gun?
    Providing your services to the militia of your state. Without a firearms you're pretty well useless to the militia.

  5. #45
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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Wow. Ok, we're done. There is no coherent argument here. I've already told you why this doesn't hold up previously. You're merely continuing in ignoring my arguments and saying the same things which have previously been disproved.
    You seem to think they mean any band of people who want to organize in a military manner. They're not. You don't have that right.


    The broader term means the pool of people who can be called up, the narrower term means the state national guards and army reserves.

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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Wow. Ok, we're done. There is no coherent argument here. I've already told you why this doesn't hold up previously. You're merely continuing in ignoring my arguments and saying the same things which have previously been disproved.

    You're lying about me, BTW, to make a point. I never said the two militia's were different. This is why I said stop earlier. You're engaging is some seriously intellectually dishonest tactics and it's not driving the debate in any positive manner.

    You don't have the right to insult people who's arguments are not compelling to you.

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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    Heller, penned by Scalia, cites
    [INDENT]Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 (1886), held that the right to keep and bear arms was not violated by a law that forbade “bodies of men to associate together as military organizations, or to drill or parade with arms in cities and towns unless authorized by law.”
    I did not ask you for a court case, I asked you for the argument.
    What was the argument in Presser?

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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Neither the National Guard, nor the Army Reserves count as militia. Those are formal pieces of the federal controlled military. The militia is composed of the people in general, you are infact assumed part of it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    You seem to think they mean any band of people who want to organize in a military manner. They're not. You don't have that right.


    The broader term means the pool of people who can be called up, the narrower term means the state national guards and army reserves.
    ....which did not exist at the time of the signing of the constitution making them moot to this discussion.

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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    You don't have the right to insult people who's arguments are not compelling to you.
    I'll argue against poorly constructed arguments. If you don't like it, don't make them. It's that easy. If it's truth, it's truth.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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