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Thread: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

  1. #31
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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    If you actually..you know read, my opening post you would see that I actually said I wouldn't support something like this. I don't like registrations with governments especially where the exercise of our rights is concerned. I suppose that was maybe too much to ask, reading the post. I was responding on part of the arguments made by the author of this bill for the bill.
    When you write one post saying that you don't agree with it, and then a subsequent 12 posts defending it, perhaps one could be forgiven for not reading your mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari
    The argument is that there is a clear mandate to participate in the militia given through both the US Constitution and the Vermont Constitution. The right to keep and bear arms is in part born through this mandate. The State militia being composed of the ordinary citizens of the state means that the ordinary citizens of the state must be armed should the militia be called upon. Furthermore, the base is that the militia being composed of the ordinary citizens is that ordinary citizens of proper age are part of the militia. Without a gun, you are refusing participation in the militia, thus denying your duty and obligations to a free state. The state, should it be necessary to call upon the militia, must know who has actively refused their duty. As such, you must state your refusal and pay for a permit to allow for the luxury of you removing your responsibilities in keeping and maintaining a free state.
    How does a registry of non-gun owners show who has "actively refused their duty"? If you get called up and you don't have a gun, couldn't you buy one then? Similarly, if you have a gun and don't want to serve, couldn't you sell it when you get called up?

    Face it, this argument is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with a militia and everything to do with sticking it to people who don't own guns, just because you don't like them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari
    What I find funny, is that thus far the only ones whom have called this dumb or tried to oppose it would be those for registration for people who do own guns. They are ok with databasing people exercising a right, but not ok for people refusing to exercise a right. It's rather interesting the double standard.
    I am opposed to registries for gun owners as well. Now, registries for guns are a different matter.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-30-09 at 02:38 PM.
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  2. #32
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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    When you spend one post saying that you don't agree with it, and then a subsequent ten posts defending it, perhaps one could be forgiven for not reading your mind.
    Because I was stating the arguments put forth for the bill. If you read things through, this would be clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    How does a registry of non-gun owners show who has "actively refused their duty"? If you get called up and you don't have a gun, couldn't you buy one then? Similarly, if you have a gun and don't want to serve, couldn't you sell it when you get called up?
    That's like saying "I'm prepared for zombie attack, should zombies break out I'll run and get a gun". When called up, it's too late. If you're prepared and participating in the militia, you're already armed. If you wait to be called up, you're cannon fodder. You also can't just pick up a gun and have at it. People who own guns tend to practice with those guns. So they know how to use them and become decent at using them. It does no good if you get called up, run out and buy a gun, and then can't hit the broad side of a barn with it. Furthermore, if you aggregate the effects, you may not be the only one clamoring for a gun once the militia gets called up. There's no guarantee that you could find one, or that you'd be willing to pay the price for it.

    You're either prepared for zombie invasion, or you're zombie food. There's no "when called up blah blah blah". The State has interest knowing who won't fight for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Face it, this argument is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with a militia and everything to do with sticking it to people who don't want to own guns, just because you don't like them.
    No, I think the real purpose is turnaround. See how all y'all like it when people try to push to get you registered for something when you're not actually doing anything wrong. As they say, turnabout is fair play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I am opposed to registries for gun owners as well. Now, registries for guns are a different matter.
    Guns don't need registries, they are property. And you can't search or take my property without due cause.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #33
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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Because I was stating the arguments put forth for the bill. If you read things through, this would be clear.
    Mm-hmm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari
    That's like saying "I'm prepared for zombie attack, should zombies break out I'll run and get a gun". When called up, it's too late. If you're prepared and participating in the militia, you're already armed. If you wait to be called up, you're cannon fodder.
    So you're saying that there's no time lag between the time that the state notices a security threat and calls up the militia, and the time when the enemy controls the entire state economy and all borders, thus making it impossible to get a gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari
    You also can't just pick up a gun and have at it. People who own guns tend to practice with those guns. So they know how to use them and become decent at using them. It does no good if you get called up, run out and buy a gun, and then can't hit the broad side of a barn with it.
    But this bill doesn't call for registration for people who can't hit the broad side of a barn. Just for people who don't own a gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari
    Furthermore, if you aggregate the effects, you may not be the only one clamoring for a gun once the militia gets called up. There's no guarantee that you could find one, or that you'd be willing to pay the price for it.
    This assumes, of course, that there aren't also plenty of highly motivated sellers looking to get out of militia duty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari
    You're either prepared for zombie invasion, or you're zombie food. There's no "when called up blah blah blah". The State has interest knowing who won't fight for them.
    And again, this makes the faulty assumption that everyone with a gun will fight for them, and no one without a gun will not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari
    No, I think the real purpose is turnaround. See how all y'all like it when people try to push to get you registered for something when you're not actually doing anything wrong. As they say, turnabout is fair play.
    At last we've come to your actual motive, so can we just dispense with the bull**** about militias?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari
    Guns don't need registries, they are property. And you can't search or take my property without due cause.
    I completely support registering specific guns...the type of gun, the serial number, the name/address of the owner, etc. This can help trace the gun if it's ever used in a crime. I don't support some kind of government registry for PEOPLE who own guns though.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-30-09 at 02:59 PM.
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  4. #34
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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Mm-hmm.
    Just use that big organ between your ears that occupies the space in your skull. I'm sure you can figure it out, humans are rather intelligent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    So you're saying that there's no time lag between the time that the state notices a security threat and calls up the militia, and the time when the enemy controls the entire state economy and all borders, thus making it impossible to get a gun?
    You're making faulty assumptions that it will be easy to obtain a gun should things hit a level to which calling up the militia is necessary. There may be lag, there may not be lag. Who knows? If you're going to do something, if you'd fight for your State, then you need to be prepared and have the tools on hand for that. Thinking that you can just run out and get something that day isn't a guarantee that you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    But this bill doesn't call for registration for people who can't hit the broad side of a barn. Just for people who don't own a gun.
    Because those without the guns have demonstrated a willingness to put aside duty. You want to find those people and not even have them in the equation to start with. They are nothing more than a loss term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    This assumes, of course, that there aren't also plenty of highly motivated sellers looking to get out of militia duty.
    And you're assuming there will be. But again, it's a preparation thing. You're arguing an absurd position in that if the **** hits the fan you'll have all means necessary to buy the brooms and mops to clean it up. That's not a guarantee. Thus if you're going to commit to defense of the State via militia participation, you need to have the tools for that before someone else starts shooting at you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And again, this makes the faulty assumption that everyone with a gun will fight for them, and no one without a gun will not.
    While all with a gun may not fight, those without guns can not fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    At last we've come to your actual motive, so can we just dispense with the bull**** about militias?
    Jesus tap dancing Christ on a pogo stick. Does anything stick in your brain? I said these aren't my arguments, these are the arguments put forth by those pushing the bill. I've already said this ain't my argument. I didn't write the bill, and I don't support the bill. Try to remember that for more than 3 seconds. Read, listen, comprehend; that's all I'm asking and that's all within the abilities of humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I completely support registering specific guns...the type of gun, the serial number, the name/address of the owner, etc. This can help trace the gun if it's ever used in a crime. I don't support some kind of government registry for PEOPLE who own guns though.
    But you just did. Name/address of owners etc, that's registration. Wow...it only took 1 sentence for you to contradict yourself. As I said, if you want to collect information about my person, property, or papers you're going to have to have due cause. It's a right of the individual, and no matter how much you'd wish to infringe upon the rights; you cannot without engaging in treason and tyranny.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
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  5. #35
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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    If you're prepared and participating in the militia, you're already armed. If you wait to be called up, you're cannon fodder.

    What is 'participating in the militia'?

    There is no constitutional right to participate in “bodies of men to associate together as military organizations, or to drill or parade with arms in cities and towns unless authorized by law.” The state has the ability to outlaw such things. You have the right to keep and bear arms, but no right to organize into para-military 'citizen militias', unless your state allows it.

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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Militia is not troops. The US Constitution authorizes the federal government to call up the State militia if needed. The State maintains a militia, which does not qualify as a standing army. If the Federal government calls up the State militia, the Federal government must arm them. But in general on the State side that is not true.

    Listen, just stop. If you're not going to read, stop. No more. This is as clear as it gets, if you can't understand it then sorry. But it's time to stop.


    What is this? Just stop? You encounter arguments you don't like, so you tell your opponent to stop talking?

    Your argument is the one with flaws. You say that b/c you may be called up, you have the duty to arm yourself. There is no constitutional support for that. You say you don't support the Vermont person's argument, but then you proceed to support it (with flawed arguments).

  7. #37
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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    What is 'participating in the militia'?

    There is no constitutional right to participate in “bodies of men to associate together as military organizations, or to drill or parade with arms in cities and towns unless authorized by law.” The state has the ability to outlaw such things. You have the right to keep and bear arms, but no right to organize into para-military 'citizen militias', unless your state allows it.
    You have the right to arms.
    You have the right to assemble.
    You have the right to associate.

    Under what argument can you not exercise all three rights at the same time?

  8. #38
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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    What is 'participating in the militia'?

    There is no constitutional right to participate in “bodies of men to associate together as military organizations, or to drill or parade with arms in cities and towns unless authorized by law.” The state has the ability to outlaw such things. You have the right to keep and bear arms, but no right to organize into para-military 'citizen militias', unless your state allows it.
    It would probably be preparation mostly. Having tools at hand and the ability to use them. The militia isn't a standing army, so it wouldn't typically have drills or parades or anything. Rather it is relegated as duty to the individual to prepare themselves.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #39
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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Moderator's Warning:
    Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?Let's keep it civil please.

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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    What is this? Just stop? You encounter arguments you don't like, so you tell your opponent to stop talking?
    No, it's not that it wasn't arguments that I didn't like. But rather you weren't paying attention and comprehending what I wrote for some reason. That's why I said stop. If you were to continue on the same path, it's pointless because you don't actually address anything. You said the same stuff, which had been debunked. If you were to do it again, then there's no point in trying to move forward. That's why I asked you to stop. Either actually read what's being written, or stop wasting time and space. That's all. The argument wasn't flawed, BTW, you refused to acknowledge it and just put the same crap down. Which was restrictions and rules for the federal government to call up State militia. The Constitution of the United States did not create the militia, each State already had their own. It merely set for the rules by which the Federal government could call it up, and the responsibilities the Federal government would then have to the militia.

    And just because I can argue from a position doesn't necessarily mean I support the position. It just means I can understand and comprehend where the argument comes from. Not that I necessarily agree with the base, especially when I had clearly stated that I do not. I tend to oppose most forms of government registration and databasing.
    Last edited by Ikari; 10-30-09 at 03:35 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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