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Thread: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    The militias are composed of the same people. But it's the State militia. The Federal government is able to call it up if necessary, they were given a method to do so. But the militia isn't generally owned or armed by the federal government. The federal government has responsibilities to the State militias should they call them up. The State's responsibilities for their militias are different than federal. In general on the State side you are responsible for owning your own gun(s).
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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The militias are composed of the same people. But it's the State militia. The Federal government is able to call it up if necessary, they were given a method to do so. But the militia isn't generally owned or armed by the federal government. The federal government has responsibilities to the State militias should they call them up. The State's responsibilities for their militias are different than federal. In general on the State side you are responsible for owning your own gun(s).
    The State Militia is the one authorized by the Constitution. The states are specifically prohibited from maintaining troops, except as authorized by the consent of Congress.

    Your argument that citizens have a duty to arm themselves in case they are called up is problem, because if they are called up, the federal government has the responsibility to arm them, per the Constitution.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That's what the bill proposes. That because the person has the duty to State militia to ensure that the federal government does not maintain a monopoly on force; that people must own guns so that they can participate in the militia should the need arise. Militia is called up, it's not like a voluntary standing army. When called up, all those of age go.

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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    The State Militia is the one authorized by the Constitution. The states are specifically prohibited from maintaining troops, except as authorized by the consent of Congress.

    Your argument that citizens have a duty to arm themselves in case they are called up is problem, because if they are called up, the federal government has the responsibility to arm them, per the Constitution.
    Militia is not troops. The US Constitution authorizes the federal government to call up the State militia if needed. The State maintains a militia, which does not qualify as a standing army. If the Federal government calls up the State militia, the Federal government must arm them. But in general on the State side that is not true.

    Listen, just stop. If you're not going to read, stop. No more. This is as clear as it gets, if you can't understand it then sorry. But it's time to stop.
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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It prompts people to either perform their duty or charges them for a permit for the luxury to skip it. Those registered wouldn't be asked to join militia activities.
    So then...it's not compulsory. In which case, why not just have a militia registration instead of a non-gun owner registration?
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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    So then...it's not compulsory. In which case, why not just have a militia registration instead of a non-gun owner registration?
    Because you're assumed to be in the militia less you decline your duty and obligation.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Because you're assumed to be in the militia less you decline your duty and obligation.
    ...Which has what to do with owning a gun?
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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    ...Which has what to do with owning a gun?
    Are you being serious, or is this just factitious play?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Are you being serious, or is this just factitious play?
    I just want to make sure I understand you correctly, lest I get accused of creating a strawman. Tell me if/where I am misrepresenting your views:

    1. Participation in the militia is compulsory (should it ever be necessary), and your participation is assumed.
    2. A militia requires the militiamen to own a gun...but since owning a gun isn't mandatory, participating in the militia is NOT compulsory.
    3. There needs to be a registry for people who DON'T own guns, so that they can be excluded from something they are legally compelled to do.
    4. A registry of non-gun owners is an effective way of knowing who can't be a part of the militia, even though participation is compulsory anyway and even though people could sell their guns at the last minute to avoid service if the state ever called them up for duty.
    5. The state has a compelling interest in registering 90-year-old women as non-gun owners, to prove that they can't be part of the militia.

    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-30-09 at 02:24 PM.
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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Since it appears OK for some states to publish lists of those that hold CCW licenses, I'd argue that VT should then require the publication of those that do not have a gun.

    It is not possible to show a "compelling state interest" in the state knowing who has a gun and who does not, as a "compelling state interest" is something that, should it not exist, would mean that it would be impossible for society to function with regard to the right in question. This is clearly not the case in terms of the right to arms.

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    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I just want to make sure I understand you correctly, lest I get accused of creating a strawman. Tell me if/where I am misrepresenting your views:

    1. Participation in the militia is compulsory (should it ever be necessary), and your participation is assumed.
    2. A militia requires the militiamen to own a gun...but since owning a gun isn't mandatory, participating in the militia is NOT compulsory.
    3. There needs to be a registry for people who DON'T own guns, so that they can be excluded from something they are legally compelled to do.
    4. A registry of non-gun owners is an effective way of knowing who can't be a part of the militia, even though participation is compulsory anyway and even though people could sell their guns at the last minute if the state ever called them up for duty.
    5. The state has a compelling interest in registering 90-year-old women as non-gun owners, to prove that they can't be part of the militia.

    If you actually..you know read, my opening post you would see that I actually said I wouldn't support something like this. I don't like registrations with governments especially where the exercise of our rights is concerned. I suppose that was maybe too much to ask, reading the post. I was responding on part of the arguments made by the author of this bill for the bill.

    The argument is that there is a clear mandate to participate in the militia given through both the US Constitution and the Vermont Constitution. The right to keep and bear arms is in part born through this mandate. The State militia being composed of the ordinary citizens of the state means that the ordinary citizens of the state must be armed should the militia be called upon. Furthermore, the base is that the militia being composed of the ordinary citizens is that ordinary citizens of proper age are part of the militia. Without a gun, you are refusing participation in the militia, thus denying your duty and obligations to a free state. The state, should it be necessary to call upon the militia, must know who has actively refused their duty. As such, you must state your refusal and pay for a permit to allow for the luxury of you removing your responsibilities in keeping and maintaining a free state.

    What I find funny, is that thus far the only ones whom have called this dumb or tried to oppose it would be those for registration for people who do own guns. They are ok with databasing people exercising a right, but not ok for people refusing to exercise a right. It's rather interesting the double standard.
    Last edited by Ikari; 10-30-09 at 02:31 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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