Page 14 of 18 FirstFirst ... 41213141516 ... LastLast
Results 131 to 140 of 171

Thread: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

  1. #131
    Tavern Bartender
    Constitutionalist
    American's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    76,306

    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    How do they know that providing people with health insurance will keep them from continuing to go to the ER?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  2. #132
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    How do they know that providing people with health insurance will keep them from continuing to go to the ER?
    The argument here is that while some people will not use a gun if they have it no matter how desperate the situation, no one will not use health insurance under the same degree of desperation.

    Aside from the fact that the above assumptions are unsupported and convienently created to allow a certain point to be made, the argument fails to consider that the universal ownership of firearms does not require the universal use of said firearms to create an effective deterrent to crime.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 11-03-09 at 03:29 PM.

  3. #133
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The argument here is that while some people will not use a gun if they have it no matter how desperate the situation, no one will not use health insurance under the same degree of desperation.

    Aside from the fact that the above assumptions are unsupported and convienently created to allow a certain point to be made,
    Which part do you dispute: That people who choose to buy a gun will behave differently than people who are forced to buy a gun (i.e. they're more likely to shoot an intruder)? Or that people who choose to buy health insurance will behave approximately the same as people who are forced to buy it (i.e. almost everyone will try to get health care if they have an emergency)?

    Furthermore, the health insurance mandate will correct a market externality (i.e. people waiting until they need the ER to seek help, and/or waiting until they get sick to get insurance), whereas the gun mandate will make a market externality worse (i.e. making it easier for criminals to operate without a deterrent, thus increasing the crime rate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    the argument fails to consider that the universal ownership of firearms does not require the universal use of said firearms to create an effective deterrent to crime.
    If everyone owns a gun but people aren't using them anymore than before (because the additional gun-owners didn't want the gun in the first place), then there is no additional deterrent. It isn't the mere PRESENCE of the gun that creates a deterrent; it's the threat of its USE.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 11-03-09 at 04:30 PM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  4. #134
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Which part do you dispute:
    I said:
    ...the above assumptions are unsupported...
    Your response does not change this; your assumptions remain unsupported.

    If everyone owns a gun but people aren't using them anymore than before...
    Another unsupported assumption.
    What if everone has a gun and as a result more people ARE using them?

  5. #135
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I said:

    Your response does not change this; your assumptions remain unsupported.
    I see you're playing your games again instead of answering the question. I have a feeling this is going to be yet another short exchange between us. However, since you asked a question I will answer it, even though you did not show me the same courtesy:

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    What if everone has a gun and as a result more people ARE using them?
    Then I suspect that would create a deterrent. The problem here is A) you have no evidence to support the assertion that more people WILL use them, and B) this has to not only reduce crime, but reduce crime by ENOUGH to compensate for the deadweight loss of forcing people to buy guns they don't want or need.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 11-03-09 at 04:40 PM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  6. #136
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I see you're playing your games again instead of answering the question.
    I'm sorry -- you've failed to comprehend my statement.

    I said your assumptions were unsupported. That means you havent shown them to be true. Noting that your statements haven't been shown to be true does not necessarily dispute them -- and so, you asking me which ones I dispute has nothing to do with what I said.

    Meanwhile, MY statement stands -- your assumptions, the foundation upon which you rest your argument, remain unsupported.

    Then I suspect that would create a deterrent.
    So then you understand the need for you to support your assumption that universal gun ownership will not result in an increase in the defensive use of guns.

  7. #137
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I'm sorry -- you've failed to comprehend my statement.

    I said your assumptions were unsupported. That means you havent shown them to be true.
    Kinda hard for me to support them if I have to guess which ones you're referring to. When you figure out which ones you're disputing, be sure and let me know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    So then you understand the need for you to support your assumption that universal gun ownership will not result in an increase in the defensive use of guns.
    YOU are the one arguing in favor of a bill that takes away freedom and increases the crime rate.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  8. #138
    Guru
    Crunch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last Seen
    12-21-10 @ 05:24 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    4,063

    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Uh huh. And why is making things easier for robbers a compelling interest of the state? Did you have anything useful to say, or were you just trolling?
    Just trolling...

  9. #139
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    01-21-16 @ 12:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    51,124

    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Why? What's the point in forcing someone to own a gun if they aren't going to use it should the need ever arise?
    To lower the crime rate.

    The one exception does not in any way invalidate the FACT that when everyone is forced to own a gun, the crime rate goes down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You don't think that people who have to be prodded to buy health insurance will go to the ER when they have an emergency? If that were the case, then there wouldn't be a problem of people using it and sticking someone else with the bill in the first place.
    I was referring to the people who aren't likely to go to a hospital unless it's life or death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    On the other hand, the argument that guns deter criminals is ENTIRELY dependent on the behavior of the gun-owners. Imagine a world where everyone owned a gun, but no one ever confronted criminals with them. Do you think that would deter criminals? Of course not; the people might as well not have the gun at all.
    Evidence shows that a gun-owning population does use the guns out of some silly notion of not wanting to be a victim, and therefore the crime rate lowers. The hypothetical "just let him rape me" population you imagine does not actually exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Then you aren't actually reducing crime, you're just shifting it to the most vulnerable people and imposing an additional cost on others.
    As gun ownership increases in a population, the crime rate goes down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Almost any example you can cite is an example of eliminating BARRIERS to gun ownership, not active government prodding in FAVOR of gun ownership. You have absolutely no evidence that the crime rate will go down if the government encourages people to buy guns who have no stomach for, or interest in, guns.
    Case in point:
    Gun Ownership Mandatory In Kennesaw, Georgia --- Crime Rate Plummets

    Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:29:03 PM by doug from upland

    by Chuck Baldwin

    The New American magazine reminds us that March 25th marked the 16th anniversary of Kennesaw, Georgia's ordinance requiring heads of households (with certain exceptions) to keep at least one firearm in their homes.

    The city's population grew from around 5,000 in 1980 to 13,000 by 1996 (latest available estimate). Yet there have been only three murders: two with knives (1984 and 1987) and one with a firearm (1997). After the law went into effect in 1982, crime against persons plummeted 74 percent compared to 1981, and fell another 45 percent in 1983 compared to 1982.

    And it has stayed impressively low. In addition to nearly non-existent homicide (murders have averaged a mere 0.19 per year), the annual number of armed robberies, residential burglaries, commercial burglaries, and rapes have averaged, respectively, 1.69, 31.63, 19.75, and 2.00 through 1998.


    <snip>
    Contrast this with Chicago's complete ban on hand guns and their crime rate.

    Does UHC offer to reduce illness/injury in the same way that mandatory gun-ownership has proved that can lower crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The criminal can "roll the dice" on whether the homeowner has a gun at all WITHOUT this list. As it is, you're making it nice and easy for him to AVOID rolling the dice.
    The at-risk population would be reduced from the many who were merly not inclined to own, to way down to those few who can not legally possess.
    Last edited by Jerry; 11-03-09 at 07:39 PM.

  10. #140
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    01-21-16 @ 12:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    51,124

    Re: Vermont to Register Non-Gun Owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    Just trolling...
    Once you go troll you never re-roll

    +1 if you get that

Page 14 of 18 FirstFirst ... 41213141516 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •