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Thread: The Face of Gay Marriage? Video clip from Maine newscast

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    Re: The Face of Gay Marriage? Video clip from Maine newscast

    How can you as an American say you want rights refused to other citizens? FReedom to choose is basic. You may not like it but how can you deny one the right?

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    Re: The Face of Gay Marriage? Video clip from Maine newscast

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I was waiting for the polygamy red herring. You are using all the same tired old arguments that have been destroyed time and again.
    Uh, he asked....he set it up and sawt me out on that one.

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    Re: The Face of Gay Marriage? Video clip from Maine newscast

    Quote Originally Posted by submarinepainter View Post
    How can you as an American say you want rights refused to other citizens? FReedom to choose is basic. You may not like it but how can you deny one the right?
    Who is this post directed to?

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    Re: The Face of Gay Marriage? Video clip from Maine newscast

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Sparta. It's the example that comes to mind immediately.

    It's well known that India had marriages between two men.

    And you don't get to move the goal posts here. Your statement was a blanket statement concerning all cultures going back millenia. It is a fairly recent development, relatively speaking, that marriage is a legal institution and not just a cultural/religious one. For you to now place expectations of modern standards to ancient practices only shows that you already know yourself to be wrong about this and are simply trying to do damage control.
    I will amend my blanket statement to include isolated obscure citations of possible same sex 'marriages' in ancient cultures, though I am not sure you would be able to make a strong case from any credible source for any official sanction of such. From what I know of the Hindu, Buddhist, and Islamic cultures, it is highly unlikely that there would be official sanction of such in India though I am aware that the disapproval of homosexual activity between men was often better tolerated than that between women. And the Spartan accounts are far to sketchy and suspect to give serious consideration.

    I placed no 'expectations of modern standards to ancient practices', but simply said that the definition of marriage has been around for a very long time. I am actually opposed to judging morality and cultures of ancient people by modern criteria. But that is a subject for a different thread.

    Also I am not the least bit homophobic. I have absolutely no problem with two guys or two gals falling in love, enjoying sex to the fullest, and I have been a long time advocate for making such unions legal and providing all the protections such unions now lack. You once were an ally with me in that. What happened since I've been away?

    I personally think that all children, whether straight or gay, benefit from having a loving mother and father in the home. I know that isn't always possible and that single parents and gay parents can do wonderful parenting, but that does not change my opinion that I think a loving mom and dad are important for all kids. My only resistance to changing the definition of marriage is that I think it will further erode the traditional family until it is no longer recognizable and more and more kids will not have the benefit of a mom and dad in the home. I don't want that to happen.

    I could be wrong that changing the definition would put us on that slippery slope, but so far the shrill voices demanding 'equality' have not convinced me that I am.

    My dog in this fight is one of pure practicality.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: The Face of Gay Marriage? Video clip from Maine newscast

    Quote Originally Posted by submarinepainter View Post
    How can you as an American say you want rights refused to other citizens? FReedom to choose is basic. You may not like it but how can you deny one the right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Who is this post directed to?
    You

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    Re: The Face of Gay Marriage? Video clip from Maine newscast

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Also I am not the least bit homophobic. I have absolutely no problem with two guys or two gals falling in love, enjoying sex to the fullest, and I have been a long time advocate for making such unions legal and providing all the protections such unions now lack. You once were an ally with me in that. What happened since I've been away?
    I still think the government shouldn't be involved in legitimizing relationships. I still think civil unions would be the best choice.

    However, after watching, first hand, how the gay marriage debate was tainted with deceit, hysteria, and the lowest of radical tactics by the far right here in California, my opinion on maintaining moderacy has changed.

    I think there are some forces at play that don't have any motivations beyond hate and a desire to devalue other human beings and this debate is the most convenient way to express that sickness. As long as they are at work, I can't, in good conscience, maintain the neutral attitude toward the rights of my peers that I once held.

    Moderates like you will always be appreciated and you will always have my nod of assent to your arguments and beliefs...because they are wholesome and good beliefs. But the extremists on the anti-gm side have turned this moderate away from believing there is a compromise to be had without forcing capitulation through activism.

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    Re: The Face of Gay Marriage? Video clip from Maine newscast

    Quote Originally Posted by submarinepainter View Post
    You
    Well in that case...

    Quote Originally Posted by submarinepainter View Post
    How can you as an American say you want rights refused to other citizens? FReedom to choose is basic. You may not like it but how can you deny one the right?
    Ok so you're not focusing on this specific issue at hand, but rather testing a general principal.

    That's just fine.

    First, I'd like to point out that I do not oppose gay-marriage. Stating the cut-n-dry fact that it's not a civil rights issue in no-way means that I therefore oppose gay-marriage. If I say the sky is blue are you going to say that I therefore hate red? Of course not. Making an observation does not mandate a conclusion.

    Second, there is no right to marry just whomever we want, nor is there any right to marry a person of the same sex. What does not exist can not be denied. Maybe those rights should be created, but they currently do not.

    Third, assuming those rights did exist, rights per-se can be denied based on the merits of the harm allowing them would impose on others. We don't allow felons to posses firearms, for example, so the precedent of justly denying rights is clearly there.

    My chief concern (as distinguished from objection) with gay marriage, is that it will perpetuate existing problems instead of doing anything to correct those problems.

    I'm a pragmatic, goal-oriented person. As such, if I don't see how gay-marriage helps accomplish the goal of reducing the divorce/juvenile-crime/teen-pregnancy rates, then I'll see it as a distraction and I'm more likely to treat gay-marriage with hostility.

    "Gays will also have a 50% divorce rate" is not a compelling argument when we don't want a 50% divorce rate to begin with. In this way gay-marriage is seen as making the problem worse by legitimizing divorce.

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    Re: The Face of Gay Marriage? Video clip from Maine newscast

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I still think the government shouldn't be involved in legitimizing relationships. I still think civil unions would be the best choice.

    However, after watching, first hand, how the gay marriage debate was tainted with deceit, hysteria, and the lowest of radical tactics by the far right here in California, my opinion on maintaining moderacy has changed.

    I think there are some forces at play that don't have any motivations beyond hate and a desire to devalue other human beings and this debate is the most convenient way to express that sickness. As long as they are at work, I can't, in good conscience, maintain the neutral attitude toward the rights of my peers that I once held.

    Moderates like you will always be appreciated and you will always have my nod of assent to your arguments and beliefs...because they are wholesome and good beliefs. But the extremists on the anti-gm side have turned this moderate away from believing there is a compromise to be had without forcing capitulation through activism.
    Thank you for your kind and reasonable words.

    In all due respect, however, present company excluded, I think gay people are not winning any points by emulating the very tactics that you resent among unreasonable rightwing extremists. Many people, even in California, who voted to defend gay marriage would have preferred to do it as I would prefer to do it. But I think some of the radical extremist leftwing California courts left them with little option than to fight back for what they believe even if the 'war' included provisions they would not have chosen. I think even in California there are a lot more folks who share my views than there are of the activists that offend you. Many of those rightwing activists offend me too as do some of the extremist pro-gm side.

    It is too bad that the extremists were allowed to frame the debate.
    Last edited by AlbqOwl; 10-23-09 at 05:27 PM. Reason: correct some of the more awkward syntax
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: The Face of Gay Marriage? Video clip from Maine newscast

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Thank you for your kind and reasonable words.

    In all due respect, however, present company excluded, I think gay people are not winning any points by emulating the very tactics that you resent among unreasonable rightwing extremists. Many people, even in California, who voted to defend gay marriage would have preferred to do it as I would prefer to do it. But I think some of the radical extremist leftwing California courts left them with little option to fight back for what they believe even if the 'war' included provisions they would not have chosen. I think even in California there are a lot more folks who share my views than there are of the activists that offend you. Many of those rightwing activists offend me too as do some of the extremist pro-gm side.

    It is too bad that the extremists were allowed to frame the debate.
    What was really infuriating about the whole thing is that weeks leading up to the vote, the debate had remained mostly civil without many signs of ugliness that hot button issues tend to show.

    And then, out of the blue, ads started airing telling people that the schools would indoctrinate their children to be homos, that mom and dad would not be allowed terminology, ads referencing debunked studies from the 1950's. And then we find out that it wasn't even California dollars being spent on these ads...that it was some radical group in Utah injecting the funds and reframing the entire debate into something ugly and destructive.

    And the way they campaigned to the African American churches, knowing that they would be out in force to vote in this election...and any other time they wouldn't have given them the time of day.

    No, after seeing what we're up against, I decided then that I couldn't stand by and maintain my neutrality anymore. And I am still far from extreme in my views but I am far less forgiving of anything I percieve as misinformation on the topic. My motto is "Never be caught unaware again".

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    Re: The Face of Gay Marriage? Video clip from Maine newscast

    To Jallman:

    Again it was unfortunate that the extremists were allowed to frame the debate. I think reasonable people have to not allow the extremists on any side of any debate determine what side we will come down on. But I like to keep things precise too. It's what keeps me active on these discussion boards.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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