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43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforcemen

Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

TacticalEvilDan said:
That the guy who is responsible for the ultimate result of the final decision is taking the time to think about it.

]The fact that he didn't immediately give a "go" order suggests to me that there's more going on here than we're being allowed to see.
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Yeah, there's more going on alright. IMO, he's weighing the political scene and how his decision, either way, will effect his poll numbers.

I think he's got his ass in a real crack. If he sends additional troops to the ATO, his base will have a hissy fit. If he doesn't, the rest of the country will lose all confidence in him. So, ultimately, he's trying to figure out which decision will get him more votes in 2012.

Isn't that how it works in a war -- that there are lots of things going on that spectators aren't allowed to see?
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That's exactly how war works and if it weren't for the three top uniformed officers in the chain of command saying that more troops need to be sent to Afghanistan, I probably wouldn't have joined this discussion. However, the three top uniformed officers in the chain of command have expressed their needs to be successful and my opinion is that the time for discussion is over.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

TacticalEvilDan said:
The situation in Afghanistan today is not the situation in Afghanistan 20 years ago. I'm sorry, but you just can't compare them apples to apples.
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How is it different? Care to explain in detail?



I never said you didn't, but that still doesn't qualify you to say what is or is not enough to control the situation.
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What is, or isn't enough, is irrelevant. I would rather we send too many than not enough.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

TacticalEvilDan said:
Sorry, but I have an awfully hard time of using the word "only" when I think of 17,000 soldiers. :lol:
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That's because you're not able to think in the proper perspective.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

TacticalEvilDan said:
The situation in Afghanistan today is not the situation in Afghanistan 20 years ago. I'm sorry, but you just can't compare them apples to apples.
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I never did compare them apples to apples....In both cases though,the enemy is the same and both did'nt have the troop strength needed to win.




I never said you didn't, but that still doesn't qualify you to say what is or is not enough to control the situation.
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Perhaps not,but I have a pretty good idea what is needed.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

TacticalEvilDan said:
From what you're saying, Rev, I guess I gave the average military grunt too much credit.
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If this is what you took from our conversation, then further discussion is futile. :shrug:
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
Not quite Rev......

You did in fact inject your military experience when you presumed to attack the CinC for his military thinking when you said this in your OP:


That would presume that you know better about military decision making than the CinC who has the advise of the Joint Chiefs, The Sec. of Defense & others at hand.

You went on to say:






Which can only be interpreted as you chastising the CinC's decision schedule as "Inexcusable"....when you have no way of knowing the info that he has gotten from his commanders & advisers, & alleging that he can't walk & chew gum at the same time. (Presidents are always required to juggle many important things.....at the same time, especially wartime Presidents)

So I ask again, totally pertinent to your topic:
Why should we accept your castigation of the CinC as you knowing better than the him & all his advisers combined?

That's a fair question to ask you & not an attack.
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Do you think I am a fool? :lamo


Why would you start attacking my service, only to say you are not, then to strawman me by claiming I used my service as a fallacy of appeal to authority argument to which I never made, to only the continue and say that my service does not make me an expert, and argument I never made?


What a tangled web you weave, can you even follow it? :lol:
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Do you think I am a fool? :lamo


Why would you start attacking my service, only to say you are not, then to strawman me by claiming I used my service as a fallacy of appeal to authority argument to which I never made, to only the continue and say that my service does not make me an expert, and argument I never made?


What a tangled web you weave, can you even follow it? :lol:
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Devil505's debating skills are top notch.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Do you think I am a fool? :lamo


Why would you start attacking my service, only to say you are not, then to strawman me by claiming I used my service as a fallacy of appeal to authority argument to which I never made, to only the continue and say that my service does not make me an expert, and argument I never made?


What a tangled web you weave, can you even follow it? :lol:
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So you simply will not answer a legitimate question based on a complaint about Obama which you raised on your thread??
Resorting to distraction does not further your original complaints about Obama. How about just sticking to your topic?

Why should we listen to you over our CinC? (maybe there are good reasons......Present them for us to evaluate.(I'm serious here & not trying to pick a fight with you. Your original post offered little but an emotional rant against Obama....Do you have some real arguments to present here?)
 
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Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

apdst said:
I have access to what McChrystal told the president and that Patreaus and Mullen support McChrystal's position.
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From JRTC?
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
So you simply will not answer a legitimate question based on a complaint about Obama which you raised on your thread??
Resorting to distraction does not further your original complaints about Obama. How about just sticking to your topic?

Why should we listen to you over our CinC? (maybe there are good reasons......Present them for us to evaluate)
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You want me to play your games, I won't old man. You lied about me, attacked my service, and you built a mighty strawman.

What makes you think I will engage your deception?
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
So you simply will not answer a legitimate question based on a complaint about Obama which you raised on your thread??
Resorting to distraction does not further your original complaints about Obama. How about just sticking to your topic?

Why should we listen to you over our CinC? (maybe there are good reasons......Present them for us to evaluate.(I'm serious here & not trying to pick a fight with you. Your original post offered little but an emotional rant against Obama....Do you have some real arguments to present here?)
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You remind me of someone.

baghdadbob_improv.jpg
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
You want me to play your games, I won't old man. You lied about me, attacked my service, and you built a mighty strawman.

What makes you think I will engage your deception?
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OK...I tried......It's your thread & you started by attacking Obama & now you are attacking me with your "Old Man" BS again! :thumbdown

Who do you think you are that no one is allowed to question your bona fides when you attack the CinC & won't provide unemotional reasons for it??

This is a DEBATE forum...... not a "Take my word for it" forum.
 
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Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
OK...I tried......It's your thread & you started by attacking Obama & now you are attacking me with your "Old Man" BS again! :thumbdown

Who do you think you are that no one is allowed to question your bona fides when you attack the CinC & won't provide unemotional reasons for your reasons??

This is a DEBATE forum...... not a "Take my word for it" forum.
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LOL This coming from a guy that will not answer questions.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Strucky said:
I never did compare them apples to apples....In both cases though,the enemy is the same and both did'nt have the troop strength needed to win.






Perhaps not,but I have a pretty good idea what is needed.
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The Soviets had close to half a million men in Afghanistan and still lost the war.

The problem here is that the American people do not seem to be willing to make the kind of sacrifice that is needed to win there. It's pretty much the same with Iraq. Bush told us to go shopping, and Obama? He pretty much says nothing, which is just as bad. To win over there will take a huge sacrifice, and that message has to be made by our leaders. Whether it is Bush or Obama, nobody has led the American people, or talked honestly about what it would take. I also believe that, if a president talked honestly to the American people about what it takes to win, his party would lose big in the next election. Simply put, the American people are war weary, and IMHO, that IS the problem. That, along with the old adage "You can't fight a war on the cheap and expect to win", says it all.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

danarhea said:
The Soviets had close to half a million men in Afghanistan and still lost the war.
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They never had more than 104,000 troops at any given time....Around 600,000 served through out the war.

Soviet war in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The problem here is that the American people do not seem to be willing to make the kind of sacrifice that is needed to win there. It's pretty much the same with Iraq. Bush told us to go shopping, and Obama? He pretty much says nothing, which is just as bad. To win over there will take a huge sacrifice, and that message has to be made by our leaders. Whether it is Bush or Obama, nobody has led the American people, or talked honestly about what it would take. I also believe that, if a president talked honestly to the American people about what it takes to win, his party would lose big in the next election. Simply put, the American people are war weary, and IMHO, that IS the problem. That, along with the old adage "You can't fight a war on the cheap and expect to win", says it all.
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I cannot argue with the rest of what you say.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

danarhea said:
The Soviets had close to half a million men in Afghanistan and still lost the war.

The problem here is that the American people do not seem to be willing to make the kind of sacrifice that is needed to win there. It's pretty much the same with Iraq. Bush told us to go shopping, and Obama? He pretty much says nothing, which is just as bad. To win over there will take a huge sacrifice, and that message has to be made by our leaders. Whether it is Bush or Obama, nobody has led the American people, or talked honestly about what it would take. I also believe that, if a president talked honestly to the American people about what it takes to win, his party would lose big in the next election. Simply put, the American people are war weary, and IMHO, that IS the problem. That, along with the old adage "You can't fight a war on the cheap and expect to win", says it all.
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I agree & think the answer is that this is not a war that Obama ever wanted & wants to figure out a way to get out of it. He's trapped by his campaign promises but is smart enough to know throwing more American lives & more money will not lead to "Victory"...which is nebulous concept in a war like that anyway.
I like his concept of training the Afghans to take over their security & getting our boys & girls home.

Every military commander will always want more troops. The smart thing to do is decide what purpose would be they serve BEFORE you comit to sending more. If training is the new goal...I say great!...Have enough trainers to do it & then get the hell out of there,.
 
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Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
I like his concept of training the Afghans to take over their security & getting our boys & girls home.
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That takes a long time to achieve in tribal societies.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
If this is what you took from our conversation, then further discussion is futile. :shrug:
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I missed this post earlier.
Nice to see that you evidently won't debate anyone who disagrees with you, eh? (Not just us "Old Men"?)
TacticalEvilDan didn't question your military bona fides......Why not continue to debate him??
 
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Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

McChrystal wants 40K more troops for what? Securing the population? Conservative estimates from DC think tanks put the number at 300K troops to secure the Afghans. Sounds like GEN McChrystal isn't asking for enough.

The problem is that we won't do what it takes to win there. We will half-ass it just like we have for the last nine years. JUST LIKE BUSH DID, ALSO (just so the right-wingers remember).

If victory in AFG is defined as securing the Afghans to create an environment for a stable democracy, then forget it. It happened in Iraq (kind of), but Iraq is not third-world and they aren't cavemen.

This is something I posted on the "Should we get out of AFG" thread:

OK, there are some things that need to be said on this thread.
Truths about 9/11:

The 9/11 terrorists did not prepare for the 9/11 attacks in terrorist training camps in Afghanistan by climbing on monkey bars, crawling under barbedwire and aimlessly firing AK-47s into the desert. They plotted 9/11 by researching weaknesses and antiquated hijack policies and procedures in the commercial travel industry in America. They used and abused the rediculous U.S. student visa and green card policies. They enrolled in an American flight school and trained to fly by day…and enjoyed Gentlemen’s clubs by night.

Those attacks were plotted over chai tea by organized criminals. Not over a campfire by battle-hardened insurgents.

If the leaders of this country were SERIOUS about battling terrorism and protecting our country, we would:
-Racially profile at U.S. airports and pressure other nations to do so.
-Deny visas to any Arab male aged 18-50 named Mohammed or something similar
-Protect our borders where they are vulnerable
-Secure our ports and conduct rigorous inspection of incoming cargo.
-See that the majority of our Homeland Security money goes to major target cities and landmarks.
-Continue warrantless wiretapping international phone calls from and to suspected terror suspects.
-Keep Guantanamo open and full.

But we won’t do these things because they aren’t politically correct or acceptable by some in power. They would rather send American boys to die in a wasteland that has absolutely no chance in hell of ever becoming a functioning democracy of any kind. The people in Afghanistan are cavemen. They are too far behind the times to understand what we are trying to do for them. Furthermore, we do not possess the resources, manpower, military capability or political will to truly secure that country and make it a functioning democracy, rid of all Islamic fanatics. Even if we did, it is an impossible task. None of this matters anyway, because a free and democratic Afghanistan does not mean we are safe from terrorists. They can just pick up and move. Like they did from Sudan to Afghanistan; they can and will move again. Will we follow them and bring democracy to the next country…and the next, and the next?

Nation-building in the name of protection from terror is a senseless strategy that will not work. The military isn’t designed for it and not particularly good at it. Bush was wrong to do it and Obama is wrong to keep doing it.
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I think it's pertinent here too.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
OK...I tried......It's your thread & you started by attacking Obama & now you are attacking me with your "Old Man" BS again! :thumbdown

Who do you think you are that no one is allowed to question your bona fides when you attack the CinC & won't provide unemotional reasons for it??

This is a DEBATE forum...... not a "Take my word for it" forum.
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You tried? You tried jack **** old man. You lied, decieved, built a strawman and attacked my service. What you tried at, like usual, you failed.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
I missed this post earlier.
Nice to see that you evidently won't debate anyone who disagrees with you, eh? (Not just us "Old Men"?)
TacticalEvilDan didn't question your military bona fides......Why not continue to debate him??
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I respect TED, I just think if that is what he boiled our conversation down to, then I was done. I think, he would be far more willing to re-evaluate his statement and re-approach me and this topic differently. While you will continue with strawmen, attacks on my service, and lies.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
You tried? You tried jack **** old man. You lied, decieved, built a strawman and attacked my service. What you tried at, like usual, you failed.
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I guess it will always be up to the readers to decide that. Not you...Not me.....& not a few partisan allies who scream & yell on this thread either.
(you guys do love that word Strawman though, eh?)
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
I guess it will always be up to the readers to decide that. Not you...Not me.....& not a few partisan allies who scream & yell on this thread either.
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I wasn't the one who was told to "stfu" by someone on "my side".... :shrug:
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
I wasn't the one who was told to "stfu" by someone on "my side".... :shrug:
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Why not continue to debate him then? What are you afraid of? (his remarks were courteous & on topic....Why stop talking to him too?)
 
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Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
Why not continue to debate him then? What are you afraid of?
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Nothing. TED can talk to me anytime he wishes. Go Troll elsewhere old man.
 
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